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Post by Jaeger » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:34 pm

Vitiare wrote:OK, forget about loading the shotgun with rock salt. Turns out its pretty useless:
That's the idea -- when I was a kid the farmer behind our neighborhood was rumored to have a shotgun full of rock salt to shoot at the local kids when we were running around his field. The idea was to scare us off/sting our asses, not kill/maim/hurt us.

The idea was basically to administer an ass-whooping from 20 feet away through a corn field. :mrgreen:

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Post by Vitiare » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:47 pm

Good for menacing kids. Not so good for a home intrusion.
"If loud pipes save lives, imagine what training and proper gear could do."

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Post by Sisyphus » Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:52 pm

I don't know; if someone pointed a shotgun at me from across the room, a quick risk assessment would tell me that I'm about to get shot full of holes.
Even if it was rock salt, can you imagine how excruciatingly painful that would be?? It would leave you wishing for death anyway.
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Post by goose » Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:15 pm

Vitiare wrote:
Sisyphus wrote:...and even though I own guns and would probably shoot someone if I had due cause, I would not want to kill him. I just couldn't deal with that.
If you have firearms training, you know that the rule is "shoot to neutralize."
I'm not sure where you received your firearms training, but adherence to that rule is a dangerous principle (I've never, in my life, EVER, heard a gun expert say such a thing).

The use of a firearm is presumed, under law, to be use of deadly force. Consequently, you must be threatened with deadly force (objectively reasonable person would agree that it was reasonable for you to believe that you were facing deadly force) in order to use a firearm to defend yourself.

Many states have statutes expanding the "reasonable" circumstances (ie. breaking into an abode after dark, breaking into an abode where the shooter reasonably believes you intend to comit a felony, etc.) whereby deadly force may be used even if the shooter is not faced with traditional elements of the threat of deadly force. (presumed in the statutory scheme, relieving the shooter of having to prove those elements). Remember, self-defense is a DEFENSE you have to raise because you are being CHARGED with a felony of some sort (since it involves a gun). Can you say "fuck-ton of money?"

My point is, shooting to wound undermines your justification of using a firearm in defense since such a use presumes the necessity of the use of deadly force. Shooting to wound, intentionally, is a great way to get yourself shot. Shooting to wound is a great way to get yourself charged with excessive use of force under the circumstances. Shooting to wound leaves two sides of a story that is going to be fucked up anyway. Shooting to wound will leave you exposed to civil liability that can, and likely will, ruin your life. Shooting to wound is absolutely senseless from a legal standpoint.
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Post by Jaeger » Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:15 pm

Sisyphus wrote: Even if it was rock salt, can you imagine how excruciatingly painful that would be?? It would leave you wishing for death anyway.
I can tell you that the threat of it was enough to keep us the hell out of his cornfield most of the time. :shock:

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Post by Sisyphus » Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:00 pm

If I'm going to kill someone, I have to be in the right mood. I can't just, you know, weigh all the implications of just leaving someone bleeding all over the floor and getting sued, or hum and haw over what statutes may or may not apply. I'm pretty grouchy when I'm woken up at night, so yeah.

All this is purely hypothetical anyway. So who knows what would happen. My point of departure is I'm psychologically prepared to handle a break-in. I'm prepared to shoot someone or take the hatchet to their face, no doubt about that. I might not be prepared to kill some dumbass looking to steal something from me. Deep down I'd kill someone, sure, if I felt that it was he or I, but It'd be hard to justify to myself that killing someone who just wanted my television or whatever is okay. It's just a tv. It's just stuff. I don't give a shit about stuff.
My family on the other hand...
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Post by Vitiare » Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:05 pm

goose wrote:
Vitiare wrote:
Sisyphus wrote:...and even though I own guns and would probably shoot someone if I had due cause, I would not want to kill him. I just couldn't deal with that.
If you have firearms training, you know that the rule is "shoot to neutralize."
I'm not sure where you received your firearms training, but adherence to that rule is a dangerous principle (I've never, in my life, EVER, heard a gun expert say such a thing).

Sorry, that comes from my own background. I've got a few friends that are cops and that's something we've talked about: neutralizing the situation in whatever way is the most expedient.

And by "shoot to neutralize" I mean "drop the fucker as soon as he's inside the door."
"If loud pipes save lives, imagine what training and proper gear could do."

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Post by Vitiare » Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:49 pm

Sisyphus wrote: My point of departure is I'm psychologically prepared to handle a break-in. I'm prepared to shoot someone or take the hatchet to their face, no doubt about that. I might not be prepared to kill some dumbass looking to steal something from me. Deep down I'd kill someone, sure, if I felt that it was he or I, but It'd be hard to justify to myself that killing someone who just wanted my television or whatever is okay. It's just a tv. It's just stuff. I don't give a shit about stuff.
My family on the other hand...
Those are the kinds of questions that I dont ask myself at 3 o'clock in the morning. There is no way for me to tell if the guy is just stealing my TV to feed his meth habbit, or if he intends to kill me for sport, or a dare, or because the voices in his head told him to.

To me its pretty black and white and the castle doctrine in Texas backs me up on this:
"a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree they reasonably believe the force is immediately necessary to protect the themselves against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force.
I may decide that the better choice is to bail out the back window and call the cops. But if thats not an option, the bad guy has made the decision for me. I may have to deal with my conscience later, but in that moment, my reactions are based on the actions of the stranger who unlawfully broke into my house.
"If loud pipes save lives, imagine what training and proper gear could do."

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Post by roadmissile » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:52 am

Awhile back I lived in an awful file box apartment several stories up, was broken into twice living there, once while at home. Only escape routes were a long drop or right past the window my night visitor was attempting to climb in. Held a gun on him from cover and called out that I did in fact have a gun on him, he opted to leave and I got to file a report. Had he kept coming I was one hundred percent ready to shoot to kill. It's important to remember that even if you successfully protect yourself by taking someone's life the legal ramifications even if you're completely exonerated are pretty brutal and potentially life ruining. It's also important to remember that not all states are so liberal as Texas when it comes to self defense.

On rock salt the simple answer is don't do it, certainly not in a situation where a life may be in danger. Granted you never want to be shot but if I had to choose to be shot by something more dangerous than a nerf gun I'd take a shot shell filled with rock salt over anything else, rubber bullets, beanbags and tasers are all more dangerous. Here's a link: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot33.htm

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Post by Sisyphus » Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:06 am

In the town I grew up in, there was a guy who had a body shop and he kept a lot of stuff around, inside the barbed-wire chain link fence. It'd been broken into several times, stuff stolen from customers' cars, that sort of thing. Eventually he decided he'd had enough. He started sleeping in a van on the premises, armed with a shotgun.
The inevitable happened. Three or four teenagers broke in, came to the van, opened the back door and this guy let 'em have it. One kid dead, another in a wheelchair, the third one got away but this guy spent the next five years in court. Eventually he was exonerated, but his life and business had been ruined. He commented that if he was given a choice, he never would have gone that far, that it wasn't worth it. Duly noted by my 14-year old self at the time, around the same time a neighborhood soccer game had an argument that came to a head, one of the kids --all of twelve at the time-- came back with his dad's shotgun and killed the other kid, right there on the field. That made for some awkward feelings in the neighborhood.
I'm sure it seemed like the right thing to do at the time, but snap decisions aren't always the best, and neither are well-thought out ones sometimes.
I guess the best thing to do is be well educated, prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
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Post by Vitiare » Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:17 am

See, to me, that sounds outside of the scope of the castle doctrine. This guy knew people were breaking in to his business, so he armed himself and camped out waiting for the opportunity.

Its not the same as someone breaking into your house while you're sleeping.

However, in Texas, your place of business and vehicle are considered part of your castle.
"If loud pipes save lives, imagine what training and proper gear could do."

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Post by sun rat » Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:43 am

why do you folks seem to assume that every intruder only wants to take your stuff? do you all read minds or something like that? what if the intruder was there to rape you or your wife or your kids? it happens.

there are two things i will not abide sneaking into my house: people and snakes.
fuck it all.

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Post by Mk3 » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:04 pm

' Been shot with rock salt, hurt like hell, but almost none of it broke skin. That was for harasing livestock in WI, with no ill intentions boyond being a 15yo idiot.

There is no remorse for anyone breaking into a home, especially wiht a child. If I have a regret in this, its that the other bastard has a chance in court. Its a shame her kid had to witness that, and I hope he/she forgets it all in short order and is not effected.

Breaking into a widows home to steal her dead husband's cancer drugs at knifepoint--torture seems appropriate.

AS for the one who's going on trial, since we'll soon be paying to maintain his worthless existence, I can only hope there is a shortage of jelly in the penal system.
I'll tell you why it doesn't make me mad, because spiritually Osama Bin Laden is prepared to die for Islam. But I guarantee you, spiritually, Osama Bin Laden is ILL-PREPARED, to lick jelly outta Thunder Dick's butt crack! 'I HATE grape jelly!' 'SHUT UP AND LICK MY BUTT! AND YOU GOTTA DO A GOOD JOB TOO, CAUSE YOU'RE IN THIS TILL THUNDER DICK COMES, AND IT AINT JUST A 'MLA, MLA THERE I DID IT!' NAH, YOU GOTTA TRY, YOU GOTTA TICKLE THE INSIDE OF THUNDER DICK'S THIGH....YOU GOTTA FONDLE THUNDERDICK'S NUTSACK A LITTLE BIT. CAUSE IF YOU DON'T MAKE THUNDER DICK COME PRETTY QUICK.....YOU'RE GONNA RUN OUTTA JELLY
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Post by Vitiare » Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:11 pm

Mk3 wrote:' Breaking into a widows home to steal her dead husband's cancer drugs at knifepoint--torture seems appropriate.

I dont know if that was the case, exactly. As someone who has gone through losing someone to cancer, I know there is a metric fuck-ton of pain meds that hospice gives to make the passing as easy as possible. But when the patient finally succumbs, hospice is mandated to make sure all the meds are destroyed.
"If loud pipes save lives, imagine what training and proper gear could do."

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Post by Sisyphus » Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:50 pm

Quote:
I'll tell you why it doesn't make me mad, because spiritually Osama Bin Laden is prepared to die for Islam. But I guarantee you, spiritually, Osama Bin Laden is ILL-PREPARED, to lick jelly outta Thunder Dick's butt crack! 'I HATE grape jelly!' 'SHUT UP AND LICK MY BUTT! AND YOU GOTTA DO A GOOD JOB TOO, CAUSE YOU'RE IN THIS TILL THUNDER DICK COMES, AND IT AINT JUST A 'MLA, MLA THERE I DID IT!' NAH, YOU GOTTA TRY, YOU GOTTA TICKLE THE INSIDE OF THUNDER DICK'S THIGH....YOU GOTTA FONDLE THUNDERDICK'S NUTSACK A LITTLE BIT. CAUSE IF YOU DON'T MAKE THUNDER DICK COME PRETTY QUICK.....YOU'RE GONNA RUN OUTTA JELLY


LOL, what the FUCK is that?
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Post by Mk3 » Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:28 pm

Sisyfus, its Ron White from while he was on the blue collar tour. I tried to find/attach the audio, but met with no success.

Vitiarie, heres where I got the drug input input, not to say I believe everything I read, but I didn't just make that shit up either:

http://www.koco.com/mostpopular/30140100/detail.html
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Post by piccini9 » Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:10 pm

Sisyphus wrote:Quote:
I'll tell you why it doesn't make me mad, because spiritually Osama Bin Laden is prepared to die for Islam. But I guarantee you, spiritually, Osama Bin Laden is ILL-PREPARED, to lick jelly outta Thunder Dick's butt crack! 'I HATE grape jelly!' 'SHUT UP AND LICK MY BUTT! AND YOU GOTTA DO A GOOD JOB TOO, CAUSE YOU'RE IN THIS TILL THUNDER DICK COMES, AND IT AINT JUST A 'MLA, MLA THERE I DID IT!' NAH, YOU GOTTA TRY, YOU GOTTA TICKLE THE INSIDE OF THUNDER DICK'S THIGH....YOU GOTTA FONDLE THUNDERDICK'S NUTSACK A LITTLE BIT. CAUSE IF YOU DON'T MAKE THUNDER DICK COME PRETTY QUICK.....YOU'RE GONNA RUN OUTTA JELLY


LOL, what the FUCK is that?
Don't asl questions you don't want the answer to. :P
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Post by WeAintFoundShit » Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:11 am

Having had friends whose parents died of cancer, I can attest to the metric fuck ton of drugs that can get left behind.
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I crash a lot.

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Post by sun rat » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:02 am

the only drug that hospice seemed to keep a close eye on after my grandparents passing was the morphine. but that was the only pain med they had, neither had cancer.

i can TOTALLY see stuff being left behind from a cancer patient.
fuck it all.

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Post by xtian » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:43 am

sun rat wrote:the only drug that hospice seemed to keep a close eye on after my grandparents passing was the morphine. but that was the only pain med they had, neither had cancer.

i can TOTALLY see stuff being left behind from a cancer patient.
yups. They literally searched the apartment for left over morphine right after the end, fridge and handbags included, but left all the rest.
I'm not really from around here.

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Post by Zer0 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:58 am

A couple of people here are talking about assuming an armed intruder with an knife is intending to kill. But we all know this isn't always true. The knife can be used to intimidate or neutralize as well, and it can be used "merely" to injure, or as Sunny points out, rape someone. Let's not forget abduction.

None of that matters, though. Even if she didn't shoot him, and he "only" injured her, those wounds could have been permanent, both physically and emotionally. Maybe he intended to disfigure her. We don't know. She had no choice. And he would have kept taking from others, possibly hurting or killing as well, if she hadn't stopped him.

That's why if an armed intruder comes into my house, I'm going to make sure they don't touch anyone in my house. And if I do kill them, I know I'm going to have to deal with the demons and memories of that event, maybe for the rest of my life--nightmares, flashbacks, paranoia--I'm sure of it. But my wife and sons are more important than any of this, so that's the route I'll take if I'm in a similar situation.
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Post by Caliann » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:06 pm

xtian wrote: I don't know any of that, other than the fact that I didn't really look at the video or wasn't there, someone formed to take these kind of assumptions should decide if the guy was really there "to kill her" and if killing the guy was the right response. If not, well, it's too late to revert to a safer action.
If one has called the proper authorities, and the proper, trained authorities are not there, and one is faced with a criminal (as judged by the fact that the person has committed the crime of breaking into one's home, which here is a felony) who just happens to be armed with a deadly weapon.... one is supposed to then scrunch one's eyebrows up and attempt to read the assailant's mind to determine if the assailant TRULY plans on harming or injuring one?

Should one wait until the assailant has actually stabbed or shot one to make the determination that he does, indeed, intend harm or death BEFORE one defends oneself? What if the stab or shot renders one unable to defend oneself?

This is the problem with your logic, Xtian. The victim in question did not fail to notify the proper authorities. She had been notifying them, according to the report, for 21 minutes while the assailants were seeking entrance into her home. She also had a small child that was helpless.

Then she was faced with an ARMED criminal (as proven by the fact that he had committed a felony by breaking into her home and was holding a large hunting knife) whose intentions were completely unknown to her. And EVEN IF the assailant had said, "Just give us your late husband's cancer drugs and we will leave", is there any basis that she could trust that assessment? That once she was in their power, they would not cause harm or death to her and/or her child? This was, after all, someone who had just broken into her home and was threatening her with a knife. Is it reasonable that she could trust him to tell her the truth?

My opinion is that, in this scenario, she acted exactly as she should.

She DID NOT start firing at the intruders outside of her home. In NO WAY did she attempt to hunt them. She simply defended herself and her child when the armed criminal made himself a direct threat. Nor did she attempt to go after the second person who was not a direct threat to her and her child.

And while you are encouraging the rest of us, and her, to rely on our limited mind-reading abilities, please explain how you know that HER intent was to actually kill him, and not just injure him so that he was not longer a threat? How do you know that she wasn't aiming for his shoulder, but being scared out of her wits and in a stressful situation, she didn't just panic?

It is understandable that you do not like to just go with the flow and agree with the assessment that, in this case, her actions were justified and force was necessary. However, if the sky is blue, and everyone agrees that the sky is blue, saying that it is green just to be different is simply silly.

There are SOME bad people in this world. Luckily, not the majority, but there are SOME. Sometimes, it is necessary for good people to take particularly abhorrent and regrettable measures to protect themselves from bad people.

No life is worthless. And it is saddening that it was necessary for a life to be taken in this case. However, the onus and responsibility for that lost life belongs on the shoulders of the assailants, not the young woman who was defending herself and her child.
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Post by xtian » Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:54 am

clearly, I am not saying she should have let the guy cut her and her family into pieces, I just refuse to cheer to the consequence and consider that it's a jolly good thing that people have a chance to shot someone dead and that it's ok because he looked for it. In "my logic", people don't brake into other people's houses in the first place.
Braking into someone else's house is bad, getting killed by a housewive is also bad, two wrong don't make a right, it's a second layer of horror and not a consolation prize.

The next logical step if you extend the assumptions far beyond facts on the other extreme would be to organise lynching mobs or burn down entire neighbourhood, "just in case". But I'm not trying to convince anyone.
I'm not really from around here.

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Post by Caliann » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:53 am

I think, Xtian, our differences in thoughts stem from living in a vastly different society and culture....and not in a way you might think.

It's not that we (as people on this board, or the general population) are intrinsically violent. It is that we see or hear about this EVERY DAY. Crime is terribly rampant in this country, and there isn't a day that goes by that one cannot find a story very similar to this one where the young lady, or elderly person, or child, was a victim and DID NOT have a means to protect themselves.

How that ends is not pretty. And many of these crimes go unsolved.

It creates a climate of fear. And none of us have any idea when we, or someone we love, will be the next victim.

We are not celebrating that a life was lost. We are celebrating the fact that in THIS case, the life that was lost was NOT the victim, but the assailant.

And it is because so many of us have lost someone they cared about to some extent (a loved one, a friend, a community member) to some similar situation. Most of us KNOW someone whose similar scenario did not turn out so well.

For me, it was my brother and his fiance (she was pregnant at the time). It was a similar case, the people that broke into their house were looking for things to steal with which to get drugs. Being a young couple, they didn't have much, and that angered the assailants. (This came out in the trial of the person who was caught. They were not all caught.)

Both ended up dead, after being tortured. And how I wish my brother had had weapons with which to defend himself and Bev.

My brother was not a druggie. He was not violent. Neither was Bev.

Ask folks on the board, and you will find many have similar stories. A relative of some sort....a friend. 3 out of 5 women in this country will be raped at some point in their lives, and during that will have to wonder, "Am I going to get out of this alive?"

So when you see us whooping and hollering, yelling things like, "YEAH! That bastard got what was coming to him!" and being complimentary towards people who defended themselves forcefully in such situations, remember that far too many of us are also thinking of someone who didn't or couldn't defend themselves.

Two wrongs don't make a right..... but if someone is GOING to die, I would prefer it be the violent criminal, and not the innocent victim.
"There is a time and a place for ruthlessness. You and I and many others on this board were trained by the government to kill, maim and terrorize people and destroy their property. However, we must always keep in mind that the only appropriate time to do so is when it will benefit multi-national corporations."--Yogi Kuddha

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Post by calamari kid » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:17 am

Caliann wrote: 3 out of 5 women in this country will be raped at some point in their lives, and during that will have to wonder, "Am I going to get out of this alive?"
Do you have some research to back that up? Not trying to be dismissive here, but after a cursory search the number I see most often quoted is 1 in 6. http://www.rainn.org/get-information/st ... lt-victims
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Post by Caliann » Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:44 pm

Try here.

Also, I was adding together statistics for the different kinds of sexual assault.[/url]
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Post by xtian » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:31 pm

I'm really sorry about your experience but this kind of terrible environment will not get better by shooting people and I wouldn't even bother to have this discussion if I wasn't convinced that you and everybody here are educated an civilised enough to know it.
So, yes, it is a good thing that this time the potential victim got out of trouble even at a terrible cost but no, as a community that is potentially evolving toward civilisation or barbarism (again, let's not take civilisation for granted), it is not enviable to celebrate resolving conflicts by radical personal violence.
The solution is not to shoot rapists, the solution is to live in a society where rape is not a socially considerable behaviour.
I think that by saying this I celebrate the lack of moderator and extremely low rate of personal conflicts on this board so maybe I am a soft hearted left winged over protected utopian but yes, this is what this place is about for me, a model for utopian society.

btw, how about motorcycles ?
I'm not really from around here.

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Post by Caliann » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:14 pm

Xtian, looking at our politics and the laws that have gone into effect lately, I take *barbarism* for granted. :/

I would LOVE to see a society much like this forum. Free in speech and ideas, low on the violence. Maybe my granddaughter will enjoy that world...I doubt I will live to see it.

And I don't think anyone ever said death should be the consequence of rape. I did say that when a woman is raped, you will likely find her wondering if she will be killed also. One never knows what the true intentions of an assailant are.... and that is a problem.

I would far rather that NO ONE EVER be faced with another person threatening violence. I would LOVE that. I do not LIKE violence. I do NOT want to be forced to defend myself.

But I have to say that if I were in the same situation as this young woman, say with my granddaughter in the house, and I had been on the phone with the police for 20 minutes and they STILL had not gotten anyone out here, and then I was faced with a man brandishing a knife.... yes, I do believe I would shoot him rather than risk the possible outcome of myself, and more importantly my young granddaughter. being the headlines of tomorrow's paper reading "WOMAN AND CHILD FOUND DEAD IN HOME".

I doubt even my most pacifistic family and friends would find much comfort reading my name in that article and thinking, "Well, at least she didn't shoot him."

And Xtian, I'll happily discuss motorcycles with you in any thread about motorcycles. :)
"There is a time and a place for ruthlessness. You and I and many others on this board were trained by the government to kill, maim and terrorize people and destroy their property. However, we must always keep in mind that the only appropriate time to do so is when it will benefit multi-national corporations."--Yogi Kuddha

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Post by kitkat » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:18 am

to me *self-defense* needs no further justification beyond the reality leading to its necessity.

I also believe that those on the fringes of society are predominantly not economically viable in the current economy/system. This economic system does not provide opportunity for everyone but rather leaves millions without the opportunity to support themselves constructively *no matter their motivation*. So...they survive using other options, many violent and illegal and many end up warehoused in the largest penal system in the world (by a per capita factor of three). That this vast underclass exists (and is growing) is the real societal problem...the rest (crime, drugs etc) are merely symptoms of this sickness.

BTW violent and property crime nationally and in most sub areas of the country is a mere shadow of the bad old days in the 80's and 90's. As in the old Soviet Union, police states are quite effective at limiting criminal behavior.
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