UTMC

This is really to all the karate-ka martialst quasi-paranoid fuckheads out there like me.

So.

Recent travels have reminded me that a lot of places (especially overseas) have some REAL problems with pocket knives; I avoided having too much trouble, but I had enough to think that perhaps I need to re-think my carry kit, at least when traveling.

I usually carry an old Benchmade AFCK 800 -- big pig sticker to those what don't know it. Gets some folks a little uncomfortable, so I'm looking for a more acceptable "tool" to keep on my person as a holdout "oh shit" measure.

Yes, I'm paranoid. Deal. Like I said, this is to some of my fellow wing-nuts (e.g., BDB, Whiskywrist).

My interest is in the "tactical pen," which seems like an excellent socially acceptable "tool" to keep on one's person at all times, airport included. These pens are clearly the new "tactical fad," and there are a bunch of companies producing these things, but I've seen little in the way of objective reviews and/or thought given to their application (other than an extension of kuboton-type stuff).

So... thoughts? Anybody had any experience with these at all? They're obviously not nearly as effective as a knife, but they're not meant to be -- they're holdout weapons meant to be used in a pinch but always available, and they're certainly a damnsight better than a Bic pen or a rolled-up magazine.

Current front-runner my my search is this:



Simple, clean, elegant, and relatively inexpensive.

Thoughts?

--Jaeger

Dude, in a real oh-shit moment, your belt buckle as a flail is far more effective than a pen. An acceptable flying alternative is a whole bunch of keys at the end of a nylon strap.

Sure, but it can be a bit awkward to manufacture a flail in under 3 seconds (or less). That, and the flail is a bit of an unwieldy instrument unless you know what you're doing (I bashed myself with nunchuks too many times, gave up, decided tonfa techniques were the way to go).

As one guy put it: "a canary yellow crayon is a weapon in the right hands -- it's all about how you use it."

If you think you're going into a fight and you don't bring a goddamn bazooka, you're a fool. The trick is to have "something" available, and know what to do with it under given circumstances.

The other side is that I'm trying to find something that works with all the martial arts I've studied, and I know what to do with little pointy things better than belts.

Sides, if I took my belt off my pants would fall down, making it hard to fight.

Your point is well taken, though. Bottles, screwdrivers, scissors, sticks, bricks, rocks, neckties, tape dispensers, coffee mugs, telephone cords, and number-2 pencils all make reasonable improvised weapons.

--Jaeger

You don't swing it. you wrap it around your fist w/ 6-8 in. of slack nd punch w/ it. The heavy bits do the rest. I only do this when I fly: take all my keys, put them on a big ring w/ a nylon strap to hold them.

Otherwise, I either carry a real weapon or don't bother. I've seen the "total destruction w/ a lip balm despenser" demonstration when doing MA in the past and IMO it's total hogwash. If you're good enough to disable someone with a lip balm despenser, you don't need one.

My point is, if you're close enough and skilled enough to do damage w/ a pen, do you really need the pen?

My favorite weapon in Eizan Ryu jiujitsu, for a large span of years, was the yawara, which is very close to pen size. A pen makes an acceptable substitute. Moralhazard is correct in saying that if you are skilled enough and close enough, the weapon isn't necessary, but let me add that it gives you a nice edge...think of it as power steering for pressure points, striking, and a fair number of techniques...and can increase your efficiency. I was always taught that trouble typically comes in groups and is often armed. I'll take any advantage I can get.

I would be a little careful carrying anything that says "weapon" because if you wind up using it, you are a lot better off being able to dispose of it unobtrusively if you have to. I'd go for a cheap, tough, pen and stay away from anything that might scream "weapon" to the police. Preferably something that you can toss in a gutter so that no one notices it. If you are contemplating carrying a weapon, get some training. Note that the Tuffwriter video emphasized primarily stabbing, which is a pretty limited way of using that weapon.

Is this your pen?

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I know, not very helpful, but it was the first thing that came to mind.

Come on, J. This is Virginia. Open carry for all, and a Shall Issue state for concealed. In lieu of a wacky pen, I carry an ATK Paragon automatic punk-slicer, and once I cross into The Old Dominion, an HK USP .40Cal and 2 magazines stuffed with Hydroshocks. That way, I'm covered from a-near, and from afar.

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(crotched gun gangstar photo removed until I get my sixpack back. yeesh)

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And when all else fails, broken bottles, bricks, big rocks, a pair of scissors, bloody fists, or whatever I can find laying around to take care of business will do me just fine. I find that a vintage straight -razor is an elegant and classy way to put stitches in jackesses, and a nice, braided blackjack is a very quiet way to end an argument.

Screw pens!

And on a little less humorous note, I find that the best thing to carry in your pocket is something you don't tell anyone about, like a sneaky ninja pen. Don't ever tip your hand.

I carry elbows.

Also very effective, and nobody can take them from you. I love elbows.

Up here in the unarmed North, I too love elbows. As well as a knowledge of pressure points, joint-locks & throws, all from Ryusei Karate training. I test black belt in June.

I am 6"4", 330lbs, ugly and apparently look pissed off most of the time, this seems to work really well in every situation I have encountered so far.

See Jaeger? Just carry Mean Chuck around with you. It's easy to lose a pen, but very difficult to misplace The Vanilla Gorilla.

If I gave a rat's fuck about my personal safety, I would carry the unbreakable self defense umbrella so I could fight off hoodlums and hail storms.

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I used to work with a soprano voiced light footed fellow in Denver and he carried one of these. I always told him that the police were going to respond to a 911 call of a woman screaming and stumble upon him laying on the sidewalk with the umbrella stuck in his ass.

I'm 5'8", about 155lbs and have absolutely zero fighting or defense training but I have been told that I can be very intimidating and even (haha) scary. I guess if people think you are nuckin' futs they just don't want to mess with you. I do carry a big dull lockblade but other than stick, twist and run I don't really know what to do with it.

The "better without a weapon" argument is quite true, and I'm leaning more and more in that direction -- at this point I have a lot more training without weapons than with. This also feeds my "should I really carry this pigsticker?" question. Between the legalities of said pigsticker and my effectiveness with just bare paws... well, like I said, I'm considering alternatives.

That said, weapons are (as one sensei put it) "force multipliers"; i.e., the weapon can (usually) can make someone who isn't formidable quite hazardous (grannie with a butcher knife is still something to contend with), and make someone who is formidable even more so.

Aikiboy -- yeah, the yawara stick was what i was thinking of (I said kuboton before, couldn't think of the right name). While I don't know specific techniques for it, it seems to fit quite nicely into the techniques I already know.

Part of why I'm leaning toward the pen is because it's

1) unobtrusive

2) less (virtually non) lethal

3) less legally problematic ("no, officer, i'ts just a pen" -- and yes, they make a "sterile" version sans markings)

4) essentially disposable

5) small (easy to cary)

6) useful (i work in an office where I write a lot. duh.)

I dunno. The "tactical" scene has fads like any other, and this is one of them -- but they may be on to something there.

I'll play with it and share my findings .

--Jaeger

Your mind is your greatest weapon.

guitargeek wrote:Your mind is your greatest weapon.

Shit, I'm so screwed.

Jaeger wrote:3) less legally problematic ("no, officer, i'ts just a pen" -- and yes, they make a "sterile" version sans markings)

Honestly, many, if not most enforcement types are by nature into things martial and would likely recognize a 'tactical' pen for what it is, markings or no. So you still have the whole carrying a 'weapon', anticipating/intending harm thing. Only now you're trying to hide it.

[quote="Jaeger"]This is really to all the karate-ka martialst quasi-paranoid fuckheads out there like me.

So.

Recent travels have reminded me that a lot of places (especially overseas) have some REAL problems with pocket knives; I avoided having too much trouble, but I had enough to think that perhaps I need to re-think my carry kit, at least when traveling.

I usually carry an old Benchmade AFCK 800 -- big pig sticker to those what don't know it. Gets some folks a little uncomfortable, so I'm looking for a more acceptable "tool" to keep on my person as a holdout "oh shit" measure.

Yes, I'm paranoid. Deal. Like I said, this is to some of my fellow wing-nuts (e.g., BDB, Whiskywrist).

My interest is in the "tactical pen," which seems like an excellent socially acceptable "tool" to keep on one's person at all times, airport included. These pens are clearly the new "tactical fad," and there are a bunch of companies producing these things, but I've seen little in the way of objective reviews and/or thought given to their application (other than an extension of kuboton-type stuff).

So... thoughts? Anybody had any experience with these at all? They're obviously not nearly as effective as a knife, but they're not meant to be -- they're holdout weapons meant to be used in a pinch but always available, and they're certainly a damnsight better than a Bic pen or a rolled-up magazine.

Current front-runner my my search is this:



Simple, clean, elegant, and relatively inexpensive.

Thoughts?


Pick up a copy of the Anarchist Cookbook. I seem to remember seeing some cool stuff that might apply to your situation. But it might bring the feds to your door after they torture the bookstore owner for his clients list....

Jaeger wrote:
My interest is in the "tactical pen," which seems like an excellent socially acceptable "tool" to keep on one's person at all times, airport included. These pens are clearly the new "tactical fad," and there are a bunch of companies producing these things, but I've seen little in the way of objective reviews and/or thought given to their application (other than an extension of kuboton-type stuff).

So... thoughts? Anybody had any experience with these at all? They're obviously not nearly as effective as a knife, but they're not meant to be -- they're holdout weapons meant to be used in a pinch but always available, and they're certainly a damnsight better than a Bic pen or a rolled-up magazine.

Thoughts?

--Jaeger

I've got a stainless steel Cross pen/pencil set somewhere in the depths of my archive. Now I want to dig them out and put one in the tank bag and one in the commuter pack. I wonder if Cross makes something that fits the need, no chance of getting busted there...

I will not go into details, but here is something to think about. I was VERY VERY close to being sentenced 10 yrs for assault, just because I supposedly had informal martial arts training as In they had absoloutly no proof that I was trained in anything. As soon as someone even says you have had training you are fucked.You had better pray every witness is on your side.
3 hots and a cot plus all the sex I have never wanted !!! I will pass thanks

P.S. I never touched the guy so he never testified against me. The responding officers testifing on my behalf saved my ass.

sorry double posted

I will not go into details, but here is something to think about. I was VERY VERY close to being sentenced 10 yrs for assault, just because I supposedly had informal martial arts training as In they had absoloutly no proof that I was trained in anything. As soon as someone even says you have had training you are fucked.You had better pray every witness is on your side.
3 hots and a cot plus all the sex I have never wanted !!! I will pass thanks

P.S. I never touched the guy so he never testified against me. Also the responding officers testifing on my behalf helped alot too.

One of my MA classes long ago spent a few hours on the benefits of having a standard bic pen on you. Basically take any knife (stabbing, not really slashing) or short stick (kubotan?) techniques and they will translate straight across. We all had lots of very small bruises the next day.
If I were going to train specifically for using a "carry pen", I'd find a standard inexpensive pen that looked like it would hold up and beat the tar out of it till it broke so I knew what it would take. Then go buy at least two and carry one, practice with another.
Having people to work with that have backgrounds in different styles and are open to playing with ideas helps.

Gumby wrote:I will not go into details, but here is something to think about. I was VERY VERY close to being sentenced 10 yrs for assault, just because I supposedly had informal martial arts training as In they had absoloutly no proof that I was trained in anything. As soon as someone even says you have had training you are fucked.You had better pray every witness is on your side.
3 hots and a cot plus all the sex I have never wanted !!! I will pass thanks

P.S. I never touched the guy so he never testified against me. Also the responding officers testifing on my behalf helped alot too.

You must have the worlds worst attorney.

All fair points -- especially elbows (and knees!). I didn't see anybody mention spitting or biting, also quite valid, and also tools/tricks that nobody can take away from you (short of knocking out teeth, I suppose).

If I could keep a Mean Chuck in my pocket I would do so; a Pocket Chuck (mini Chuck? Nun-Chuck?) would be just lovely. And ya don't always have scissors or a bottle (or a Mean Chuck) handy.

As for bangsticks, they pose more problems than knives! Not just from the legal/social standpoint, but they're bloody heavy and awkward to carry. Done all that too.

The goal here is to have a consistent tool and know what to do with it -- like guns, you're only really proficient when you know what the gun is, where the controls are, and what it does. (E.g., you don't want to be fumbling with the safety on your Glock... oh, wait, Glocks don't have manual external safeties! But why won't my 1911 shoot? Oh, shit, cock the hammer! Or flick off the safety! Muscle memory, it's all muscle memory.)

For those who haven't met me, it's not like folks usually pick fights with me -- I'm not quite MeanChuck-sized, but large and scruffy enough to discourage most would-be fuckheads from bothering me and find an easier target.

I'm really interested in having an anti-knife tool -- that's the real drive. Most folks don't carry guns, but lots of people (including many of us us) carry knives, and they're super simple to improvise (as plenty have pointed out above). Countering a knife when you ain't got one is a real fucker. Yes, I know techniques that'll theoretically do it, but a lot of them are a little on the "hopeful" side, and rely on the other guy being a total moron.

If I take RevCBL and give him a big knife, he could make even Mean Chuck's day a little awkward if he wanted. Chuck is massive enough that he could probably still drop RevCBL with his bare hands, but it's a little too likely that he'll get perforated in the process, possibly terminally. And I'm working with the grand assumption that RevCBL doesn't have any martial training and is generally a nice guy who wouldn't want to punch holes in Chuck.

It's a given that you'll get cut in a knife fight, it's just making sure that you get superficial wounds while the other guy is incapacitated (i.e., unconscious due to blood loss or incapable of retaliating due to severed tendons/muscles).

If YOU have a knife, though -- or in this case, a pointed stick -- the balance of power is a little different. Then the other guy is subject to the same hazards as you.

In MH's scenario, his belt-flail provides some range that the knives ain't got -- that's a good thing -- but having messed around with hinged weapons and whips, I know how difficult they are to manage. Wrapping one's hand in the belt as protection isn't a bad idea, but it'll limit your ability to grab stuff, and it still does little against attacks anywhere else.

Bottles, scissors, etc are all really just "other versions" of the pen -- they're improvised weapons, and they roughly fill the role of the pen here. I'm just trying to find a good, easy-to-carry improvised "tool" that serves multiple functions including a last-ditch self-defensive role.

Think improvised weapons are just "improvised"? Most every cop in America caries a PR-24 side-handle batonthat's based on the Okinawan tonfa, which was in turn an adapted mill-wheel handle that the Okinawans used against mainland invaders with "real" weapons (swords, spears) -- turns out they're extremely effective, which is why cops carry clones today. Nunchukuare threshing flails that are similarly re-purposed. Same deal. Or the Eku, which was obviously an oar.

The beauty of these items is that they really are "tools" and can't be effectively outlawed or controlled any more than screwdrivers, hatchets, or chainsaws.

And yes, Priest, the best tool is the one the other guy doesn't know you have. I'm working on the assumption that nobody here is going to pull a knife on me in anger -- otherwise I'd be packing heat to Doom, as some other folks here probably will.

Like I said, this was largely for nutjob karate-ka like yours truly, so I apologize for my over-explaination.

--Jaeger

I still say that dildo is the best defense weapon. I don't care how big, scary, and well armed the other guy is . . . pull out a dildo and he is going to back away and try to forget he ever messed with you.

As for tactical pens, they seem like the kind of things that would put you in jail. Saying "no your honor, I was not looking for trouble when I was walking around with a mail order weapon pen" just sounds fishy. At the very least, it makes you look like a martial-paranoid-wackjob.

If you need to take out more than one person . . . good luck with that pen. If you need to take out one person, there are a lot of pens office depot that would probably work just as well.

PS - That scene from Casino was the first thing that popped into my head when I saw the thread title.

Rabbit_Fighter wrote:I still say that dildo is the best defense weapon. I don't care how big, scary, and well armed the other guy is . . . pull out a dildo and he is going to back away and try to forget he ever messed with you.

Excellent point, but this thread is titled MARTIAL GEEKS, not MARITAL AID GEEKS.

Benchmade makes some solid and attractive pens.

The important factor here is having an effective and solid weapon that falls within the the legal bounds of the letter of the law, especially when travelling internationally, and a pen like this fits the role well.

Having a relatively non-threatening weapon available is convienent and as there are a multitude of non-lethal techniques possible with an object like this the likelyhood you'll ever be explaining your choice of writing utensil to a judge is fairly low.

/RM

blackjoe wrote:

Priest wrote:See Jaeger? Just carry Mean Chuck around with you. It's easy to lose a pen, but very difficult to misplace The Vanilla Gorilla.

Better still, make it a nunchuck... Nobody in their right mind would fuck with a dude carrying a nunchuck.

<img src="http://www.utmc-forum.org/pub/album_pic.php?pic_id=1056">

THANKS! I was just thinking the same thing!