Toyota accelerator issue...

[rc26]

I'm not in tune with how Toyota's gas pedal linkage is configured. Anyone know? Quite a few automobiles (not just Toyota) use a "drive by wire" system now vs. using mechanical linkage. Wonder if this could be the problem?

By the way, if you have one (or any car for that matter) and this happens...just put the fucker in neutral and let it blow, better than getting killed.

[bndgkmf]

I went to the Toyota place to get an oil change the other day, and I asked the service guy when I should bring the car in for the recall fix. He told me that there is no fix as of yet but they would send me a letter when there was one. As for the accelerator getting stuck you can put the thing in neutral, you have an emergency brake, you can kill the ignition lots of stuff to save you and your families lives. If you can't think under pressure you probably shouldn't be driving anyway.

[Ames]

I thought that the accelerator sticking was just god's way of telling me I have the right-of-way... am I missing something?

[Metalredneck]

The word up here this morning is that Toyota has stopped production in North America, and suspended sales of seven models until they figure it out. I suspect it has nothing to do with cables, as most vehicles are now drive-by-wire, but I'm not certain.

One of my ex-customers had a similar issue caused by stacking up floormats for winter. We pulled the mats out, and told her not to put them all back in. Three days later, she wound up high-centered on the local War Memorial in the town square when it happened again. I'm glad we had a paper trail.

[Zim]

As for the accelerator getting stuck you can put the thing in neutral, you have an emergency brake, you can kill the ignition lots of stuff to save you and your families lives.

If you're moving, you might not want to kill the ignition. With no engine running you'll loose your power brakes and the steering wheel will lock. Instead of trying to react to one failed system, you're now dealing with three problems.

Neutral, pull over, ignition off is probably the safest bet.

Somewhat related: Guy I worked with was driving a tractor-trailer, and all of a sudden he had WOT. Clutch in, pulled over turned the key off. Nothing. Engine racing. Called our garage and explained the problem. Our mechanic was screaming into the phone, telling the driver to stop the engine NOW! Do whatever it takes! Put it in gear and stall the fucker! I can only imagine what that jolt felt like.

The turbo had broken and the engine was ingesting oil. If not stopped, the engine would have drained itself dry.

[piccini9]

I thought that the accelerator sticking was just god's way of telling me I have the right-of-way... am I missing something?

Only if you are driving a LARGE SUV.

[Priest]

By the way, if you have one (or any car for that matter) and this happens...just put the fucker in neutral and let it blow, better than getting killed.

A good way to avoid having this problem with your Toyota (or any car for that matter) is to ride your motorcycle.

[DerGolgo]

Didn't Ford have a Problem like this caused by the cruise control, back in the day?

[Toonce(s)]

Didn't Ford have a Problem like this caused by the cruise control, back in the day?

Ford's cruise control switch would merely bust into flames while the vehicle was sitting unattended, preferably in your garage. At least that problem was easily understood and fixable.

I do feel pity for the peeps that have gone to their deaths via uncommanded acceleration because they didn't know to put it in neutral and pull over.

[Priest]

ride a motorcycle

^ This can be truncated as such. ^

[DerGolgo]

Didn't Ford have a Problem like this caused by the cruise control, back in the day?

Ford's cruise control switch would merely bust into flames while the vehicle was sitting unattended, preferably in your garage. At least that problem was easily understood and fixable.

I do feel pity for the peeps that have gone to their deaths via uncommanded acceleration because they didn't know to put it in neutral and pull over.

Actually, I meant runaway acceleration like this:
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3eGTqKn_ihc&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3eGTqKn_ihc&hl=de_DE&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

This vid is part one, there are very many more, and although a British show, the models in question are the same that are sold in the US, some US cases (involving runaway LTDs) are in later segments, all on the tube.

[Toonce(s)]

Didn't Ford have a Problem like this caused by the cruise control, back in the day?

Ford's cruise control switch would merely bust into flames while the vehicle was sitting unattended, preferably in your garage. At least that problem was easily understood and fixable.

I do feel pity for the peeps that have gone to their deaths via uncommanded acceleration because they didn't know to put it in neutral and pull over.

Actually, I meant runaway acceleration like this:...
.

Between the two, that is what I call a fully featured cruise control!

[Photo]

'90's-era Acuras also had a similar problem (caused by cruise control and idle speed controllers). This is why I like simple car & truck design. I've nothing against cruise control, but what's wrong with a 4 foot throttle cable? Is it too much work to keep a cable well-lubed and bind-free? I never want to put my life in the hands of an electric potentiometer. You can put the car in neutral, but what if it has caused you to break loose at speed, driving around an icy corner?

Electric pots can get dirty, they can corrode, they can be damaged-or they can come from a chinese parts supplier who cares bugger-all about their fallibility rates. Simple throttle linkages can bind, too. They just seem more simple to diagnose when they stick or bind. Last thing we need is electrical interference from some child's iPod to push our car through a store front, while we're trying to park. My two cents...

[Rock]

Its not launch control?

[rolly]

It's a mechanical issue.

In a statement, Toyota disclosed that it had investigated isolated reports of sticking accelerator pedal mechanisms in some models without the presence of floor mats.

"There is a possibility that certain accelerator pedal mechanisms may, in rare instances, mechanically stick in a partly depressed position or return slowly to the idle position," the company added.

Source: Toronto Star

I was a bit worried, then I realized that Toyota doesn't make motorcycles.

[xtian]

yeah, let's ride our motorcycle and get crushed by big cars with no trhottle control

[rc26]

yeah, let's ride our motorcycle and get crushed by big cars with no trhottle control

There are bikes on the market with "throttle by wire" systems in place. Watch out for 2 wheels too!

[xaos]

yeah, let's ride our motorcycle and get crushed by big cars with no trhottle control

fuck that, ALWAYS be passing! regardless of throttle position, i can outrun a prius.

[stiles]

It's not primarily a mechanical gas pedal issue and/or a floor mat issue although both of those things can cause this.

This problem spiked hugely for Toyota after they converted most of their vehicles to fly-by-wire accelerators after the 2002 model year. Most of the other manufacturers use fly by wire as well but they use a programming safeguard that Toyota does not: power is cut to the engine if full throttle is applied simultaneously with the brakes.

Toyota also uses keyless ignitions on some of the affected models with a starter button on the dash. You have to press in the button for three full seconds to shut off the engine - not intuitive and you'd never know if you didn't read the owner's manual carefully - and who does that?

The parking brakes will never slow down a car at WFO doing highway speed or above, and many of these cars use a J or Z gate shifter that is hard to manipulate at 120 MPH when you're trying really hard to stay alive and scared out of your mind.

Add to this that the Federal brake performance standard is neither tested with the engine floored (where the engine makes nearly zero vacuum and therefore zero brake boost) nor tested at top speed (where full-house panic stopping of this type rapidly heats brake components to glazing and failure) and you have a major safety hazard.

The guy who died at the wheel (along with his family) of a loaner Lexus in so-cal was a CHP officer trained in high speed pursuit who was by all accounts a highly skilled driver. It didn't matter - he and his wife and their little girl are still dead.

This is likely a combination of a programming problem, confusing and counterintuitive controls design, and possibly insufficient electronic shielding of components and/or not enough redundancy of components.

Toyota's sweeping this under the rug for years, foot-dragging, misleading news releases and general cover-up of this issue is a massive scandal.

They need to figure this out and fast, and taking out floor mats and chopping the bottoms off of gas pedals isn't going to fix the problem - and they know it.

[Jonny]

That's pretty scary, Stiles. I just read this article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8482366.stm

Sounds like they're going to do something about it...

[Metalredneck]

I just read where the U.S. Secretary fo Transportation is telling all Americans to stop driving their Toyotas:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... sfBw&pos=1
Noice.

[Zim]

2010 Prius owners complain of faulty brakes, lurching over bumps

According to a review of federal data by the Detroit Free Press, most of the complaints allege the Prius accelerated after traveling over a bump or pothole and didn’t immediately respond to the brake pedal. The 96 complaints reviewed by the Free Press link the problem to two injuries and two crashes.

One owner from Commerce Township told the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration that they could reproduce a “lurching” in their Prius every time they hit a certain pothole.

“This has almost resulted in the Prius striking the car in front of it. It makes it impossible to safely judge your braking distance in order to come to a safe stop because you never know when this phenomenon will occur,” the owner reported.

The Prius owner said their Toyota dealer had told them the car was “within specifications…and we just have to get used to it.”

The Prius is not covered by a Toyota recall of 2.3 million vehicles to fix sticking accelerator pedals.

It's fine... get used to it. Damn complainers.

[Jaeger]

I'm suddenly very happy that my Taco is 1) old, 2) standard tranny, and 3) not in the list of deathtraps.

I'm really shocked by all this, to be honest. In my experience, Toyotas have been as dead reliable as anything on the road... WTF happened? Stiles, you're implying that this issue has been going on for a while. Has Toyota changed management so that they're no longer as quality conscious? Or did they just rest on their laurels too long?

This does very much make me re-consider ever buying a Toyota car; I'll probably still buy their trucks, but only as manual transmissions (out of preference as much as safety), and preferably outside the fuck-up model years.

Yikes.

--Jaeger

[MATPOC]

Drive by Wire is here to stay, this Toyota fiasco might slow down sales of DriveByWire equipped cars but it's only a matter of time till ALL manufacturers convert, just like they did to EFI and ABS and Airbags and seat belts...

Main reason I believe is fuel mileage, when you shove the pedal to the floor and dump waay to much air in the intake efficiency suffers and you are wasting gas. This system controls air flow and also makes traction control easier to integrate in to the system. It's only a matter of time till all cars have VSA (Stability control) as well.

Here's something from an owners manual of my Fly By Wire equipped Civic, I'm quoting from memory:
"If the TPMS (Tire Pressure Monitoring System) failure is detected the light will stay ... blah blah blah ... and if equipped with VSA it can not be disengaged."

I don't want ABS or VSA and luckily I do not have it (VSA, ABS is mandatory now) since it's a cheeper model, but for my Wife and Mother its a no brainer! My mom commuted 50 miles each way and had to be winched out of the ditched pretty much once every winter till she got ABS equipped car about 10 years ago and luckily no problems since.

I think in the 80's there was a problem with Audi's cruise control sticking, I wasn't here then, but heard about "Killer Audi" episode by 60 Minutes ( I think?) Killed Audi sales in USA!

Now here's something to chew on, stole it from another site, hope this system does not fail!

Mercedes Benz were one of the first vehicle manufacturers to employ a brake-by-wire system on a car.

Called sensotronic (SBC), the system no longer relies on the driver to produce hydraulic pressure. The
brake pedal is connected to the computer (ECU) by wire (brake-by-wire). The sensors on the brake
pedal will inform the computer how the pedal is pressed, eg how far, how fast etc. The computer will
then dissipate the required force to each wheel via modulators.

Fitted to higher end Mercedes (E Class, SL & CL Class, CLS etc) problems can occur with the ECU.

[MATPOC]

more about Benz brake system:

http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/mercede ... tem/217814

[Metalredneck]

Toyota wanted to be as big as GM, not as good as GM.

[Jaeger]

Toyota wanted to be as big as GM, not as good as GM.

Given the quality I've seen come out of GM, I'd consider that a good thing. Toyota's quality has been (at least until now) vastly superior to GM, which is why Detroit's in the shitter and Toyota is the biggest auto maker in the world.

Again, this is why I'm confused as to how they'd let this happen -- were it one model I'd understand a simple fuckup, but this sounds systemic.

--Jaeger

[dozer]

I think in the 80's there was a problem with Audi's cruise control sticking, I wasn't here then, but heard about "Killer Audi" episode by 60 Minutes ( I think?) Killed Audi sales in USA!

From what I remember from having owned an old Audi and reading about this "problem" is that there was never actually a problem; it was related to the throttle and brake pedals being too close together for americans and when some fat lady ran over her kid in the garage because of it, 60 minutes got on the case and blew it up.

[Zim]

This does very much make me re-consider ever buying a Toyota car; I'll probably still buy their trucks, but only as manual transmissions (out of preference as much as safety), and preferably outside the fuck-up model years.

You mean the three years (2000-2003) of recalled trucks where the rear cross-member would rust through and throw the spare down onto the road? Possibly trashing the rear brakes also?

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/24/toyo ... odels-tot/

PRESS RELEASE

Toyota Announces Safety Recall on 2000 through 2003 Tundra Frame Rear Cross-Member

November 24, 2009 – Torrance, Calif., – Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc. will launch a Safety Recall involving approximately 110,000 Tundra vehicles sold in the United States.

Certain 2000 through 2003 model year Tundra vehicles operated in cold climate areas with high road salt use, may exhibit excessive corrosion on the frame rear cross-member. In the worst case, the spare tire stowed under the truck bed may become separated from the rear cross-member. Spare tire separation will create a road hazard for following vehicles and increase the likelihood of a crash.

Eventually, excessive corrosion of the rear cross-member may also affect the functionality of the rear brake line at the proportioning valve. If this occurs, it can lead to the loss of the rear brake circuits which will increase vehicle stopping distances and the risk of a crash.

Something happened at Toyota.

[Jaeger]

scary stuff

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...


Well, fuck. That's really distressing. Still wouldn't affect my purchase -- I love the Tacomas, and they're still Consumer Report's best light truck -- but that's positively weird. I've seen hundreds of Toyota cars and trucks in the courier biz, and they all ran like fuckin' clockwork.

No shit "something changed." Sheesh.

--Jaeger