UTMC

Posted: **Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:01 pm**

full topic here: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f11/96-j ... s-1149721/ 11 pages & 160+ posts so far

What started as a simple question from a woman unhappy that her boyfriend's 1996 Jeep Cherokee was demanding more of his attention and money has become a viral manifesto on what men should expect from women and vice versa.

The original query posted on Jeep Forum last week from a woman in Lakewood, Ohio, was fairly innocuous:

So, my boyfriend bought a '96 Cherokee (XJ) SE, for way too much, like around $3,000. It broke down and he has put another $2,500 in it and totally rebuilt the engine and did a lot of after market work on it. He has and will do all the labor himself, he refuses to pay for labor. Now, he finds out that the motor needs to be taken back out and fixed again and is looking at another $700. I said he should just sell it and wipe his hands clean, he says he won't make enough.

Firstly, what is your guys' opinion on what he should do? Secondly, how much do you think he could make parting it versus just the whole car as is?

Thanks for your guys' opinions!

The first reply came about 90 minutes later from a long time forum member, whose profile identifies him as a 57-year-old man from California.

You want my opinion? Ok…

Shut the hell up. You're not his wife. You're not paying for the repairs. It's absolutely none of your business what he does with his Jeep or his money. I know your type well… first it's "Sell the Jeep because it's costing too much money." Then it's "No, you can't go spend the weekend with your buddies because I need you to take me shopping." Then it's "Oh gee, honey… I'm pregnant. Gosh, I have no idea how that happened."

You're a DreamKiller. You kill a guy's dreams, take away his future, tie him down with a fat mortgage and too many babies, and turn him into just another miserable guy wondering, "How the hell did I get here?"

Do you really want to help him? Here's what you do… go to your local library (it's a big building with books inside) and check out a couple of books on rebuilding engines. Read them, over and over, until YOU understand what needs to be done. Then help him get that engine out and rebuild it. Tie your hair back in a ponytail, put on some old jeans and get your hands dirty. Hand him wrenches, hold the light, pull the wire connectors apart, help him get the hood off… help him with anything he needs. When he gets tired, run inside and make him a hot lunch or dinner. Fix him coffee, hot chocolate, whatever he wants. (But NO beer. Beer is for when the job is done.)

Then when the day is over and you're both exhausted from working on the engine, push him into a hot shower and jump in with him. Scrub his back, wash his hair, rinse him off, and dry him with fluffy towels still hot from the dryer. Then push him into bed and screw his ears off. Then get up the next day and do it all over again.

Make him realize that rebuilding an engine is a slow and methodical process. Make him realize that every step should be regarded as surgery; every step must be perfect… perfect torque, perfect fit, perfectly clean. If you run into a step that you just can't figure out, ask for help from someone who knows what he's doing. Are you cute? Put on a low-cut top, show some cleavage and go (by yourself) to the local Jeep shop, and explain to the guys that you are helping your boyfriend to rebuild his engine and neither of you can figure out this one little step, and do they have any advice…

Think it won't work? Think again. We guys love to help cute girls, even if they have a boyfriend. (Hey, maybe you've got a sister, or girlfriend…)

But absolutely DO NOT whine or complain. Do not say a single negative thing. Not a single "Oooooo, I broke a nail." If you break a nail, or cut your finger, or bang a knuckle, you just shut up and DEAL WITH IT. You should be a hopelessly optomistic, never-say-die cheerleader, encouraging him every step of the way.

That's my opinion.

Posted: **Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:58 pm**

Somebody, PLEASE, post up that over-serious slow-clap-clip. I don't know what it's from, but it's so damn appropriate...

-Rench

Posted: **Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:26 pm**

Appropriate how? Maybe if we lived in 1952 it'd be appropriate. No, I take that back. In 1952 it'd be expected but still inappropriate. Maybe if we all thought women were all airheaded windbags that were out to ruin our lives, then it'd be appropriate. Sounds like that guy had issues with women. I'd bet he's 57 and single, because he's such an asshole he can't even get a date and he's driven off every woman he's ever met in real life.

That guy was an asshole.

Posted: **Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:29 am**

Yeah, this has popped up in a number of different places. Funny to be sure, and who among us wouldn't want a shop nympho now and then, but who among us doesn't in reality enjoy a spouse or significant other that can leave us alone to enjoy a hobby while having a life and interests of their own. Mr First Responder there is a bitter old douche who never achieved what he dreamed and blames everyone but himself and the weed/booze.

Posted: **Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:35 am**

You guys are obviously married.

The poster is correct, and I'd say he speaks from experience. The girlfriend needs to shut the fuck up and quit her goddamned whining already! If she's really into the guy, she also needs to be into whatever he's into! If nothing else, this represents an opportunity for her to learn something new and (potentially) useful!

I've had to inform several women that I was a musician before I met them and would remain a musician whether they were in my life or not. Same with motorcycles. These women could take me as I was or not at all, I am no project to be improved.

I'd prefer to remain forever alone than to give up these things. They're part of what make me who and what I am.

It's a slippery slope, gentlemen. Sell the Jeep or part it out or whatever, buy something new and complete and reliable that requires no tinkering... then repeat the pattern. Pretty soon, the guy has nothing to work on, no hobby but what's approved of by the girlfriend. Before long, he's wearing ugly sweaters and pushing a stroller and holding her purse and saying, "Yes, dear." If he's lucky, she'll let him set up a Man Cave where he can drink beer with his buddies a few hours a week, listen to music that only he enjoys, watch movies that she wouldn't appreciate, etc. Meanwhile, she keeps his balls, his wealth, and a goodly portion of his heart held hostage in case he gets bored and decides to go off his leash.

Here you go, Rench:

Posted: **Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:28 am**

IMHO, the woman posted a simple, straightforward, reasonable question about the wisdom of a money pit, and in response the responder from California was far and away more of an asshole than the question warranted. That answer was like hitting a gnat with a sledgehammer and the bitter old bastard who said it probably hasn't gotten laid for quite a while without paying cash for it.

Neither he nor us know the details of their situation, so judging is premature at the least. What if this is the guy's only transport and daily driver and he's too stubborn to cut bait and admit he made a mistake? What if it is his third car and weekend warrior, and bought it specifically as the project of his dreams?

Who knows?

I understand the point the guy was trying to make, but he did it so poorly that the underlying point is all but lost under an avalanche of hostility, condescension and barely masked misogyny. "break a nail"? Really?

If any of the can-do women I know encountered that guy, they would laugh in his face at best or punch his teeth in at worst.

Posted: **Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:36 am**

Yeah, a lot of barely masked hatred in that rant. Hope that guy's not married.

Posted: **Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:43 am**

Bigshankhank wrote:Mr First Responder there is a bitter old douche who never achieved what he dreamed and blames everyone but himself and the weed/booze.

guitargeek wrote:You guys are obviously married.

Yeah, BSH's married -- and so am I -- and there are reasons for that.

While the "First Responder" has a point, I gotta say I'm in BSH's camp for this one. There's this whole thing called "compromise" that seems to be a dirty word in America. The post is funny, but it belies a misunderstanding of what's required to maintain a long-lasting relationship. Want life-long companionship? You're going to have to make some compromises. Deal. I have yet to see a life-long partnership that doesn't require some compromises on both sides.

I can't speak for Rench, BSH, or Stiles -- all of whom are (to the best of my knowledge) happily married with kids, but I can tell you that I always pursued the "wife and kids" thing, and I always recognized that it would require sacrifices. I don't get to go tear-assing around like I used to, I don't behave like a lightly civilized barbarian, and while I don't get to ride and carouse like I once did, believe it or not I'm a happier man for it. I have no problem with that -- she's made (and will continue to make) sacrifices putting up with my dumb lopsided ass. We discussed some things up front that were sacrosanct for me (motorcycles being among them), and some things that were important for her. It's called respect. I sacrifice these things because I have a Partner who has demonstrated her ability to kick ass and take names when necessary, look after my dumb ass, scrape me up when I fall down and go "boom"... and I do my best to provide the same for her.

And yeah, Stiles, that Mr. First Responder was an inappropriate sledgehammer. It sounds to me like this gal is more looking for a reality check than she is a whole fuckin' philosophy. (And no, I didn't read the whole thread -- I have a real life and a wife that's much more interesting.

)

It's all about what you want in life. Want a wife and kids like me? Suck it up and deal, you probably won't get the leeway you had when you were single.

Is your "freedom" more important? That's cool too -- your choice -- but understand that chances are you won't find anybody worth a shit that'll put up with your nonsense. I can think of precisely one possible exception to this rule, and I would wager that even he has toned it down a lot from the indiscretions of his youth.

Life is not fair.

--Jaeger

Posted: **Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:31 pm**

Yeah, kinda funny, but really and ultimately dumb as hell.
Things like that are why I generally tend to avoid all but one and a half internet forums.
(The half is the local supermoto forum, where I go to find out about track days and such. I don't avoid that, because if someone is a douche on the board, they are gonna have to turn around and explain themselves face to face in real life; supermoto is a small sport around here.)

Posted: **Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:42 pm**

OK, I've got something to say about this, but I'm the first to admit that how I feel or think isn't necessarily "right" for anyone other than myself. I am really not wanting to get "labelled" as the representative spokeswoman for all of woman-kind... so don't take my comments as anything other than ramblings and thoughts of an independant woman. I'm not pretending to offer any "advice" to anyone.

The first thing I thought when I read this is that there are definitely two opposing viewpoints, and I'm not sure either one has any inherent "rightness" or "wrongness". I think it's a question that each individual has to answer for herself (or himself).

I'm mostly a loner when I ride. Not because I'm misanthropic by nature, but because I derive my own joy/pleasure from the activity of riding independent of others. If I am with friends riding along the same road at the same pace, then great, but I'm just as likely to have just as much fun riding the same road by myself.

I think that when it comes to women who ride that there are basically two different types - the key difference lies in motivation. There are some, who have pursued an interest of their own after having "discovered" motorcycles at some point in their lives... this type of woman would have her own bike and ride it regularly regardless of her relationship-situation, and perhaps has even had past relationships fall apart with a non-riding s/o...

then there is the type of woman who got introduced to motorcycles when she started dating her current s/o or husband or whatever... she really only is doing it to please him, and probably won't ever derive any real pleasure or joy out of the experience independent of his attention/participation. The paradigm can work/apply regardless of gender or hetero/homo-oriented relationship... Girl who rides and has boyfriend just tagging along to please her, vice-versa, etc.

...and I'm only speaking in generalities based on my own limited life-experience - the UTMC is probably more of an exception to the "general rule" here...

...but there *are* guys who do not want, or cannot cope with, a woman who is independent enough to have her own bike and enjoy it with or without him.

I also tend to believe that the "typical" american male rarely matures much past 15 or 16 years of age... think of it as a "lowest common denominator" kinda thing when it comes to social/cultural forces. This type of "typical" american male has a harley, and subscribes to the "typical biker lifestyle bulshit". I'm not directing any of this at anyone here.

I've met many different people who ride, being involved "in the industry" as I am. ...and again, speaking in the most general of terms, I generally find that any group of "women riders" tends to have a few core-members who are intelligent, independent (sometimes fiercely so) women, and the rest of the "club" is composed of the "Mrs. biker" sort of women...
- the kind of woman who struggles to have a concept of herself separate from her relationship as "wife" or "mother" or both.

I don't mean to sound as if I am putting anyone down for her choices...
...but it does make me sad to see how many women fall into this trap

I have trouble believing that they are really happy or "fulfilled" deep down inside.

I also recognize that maybe I'm just projecting my own "stuff". I could never be happy living that kind of life.

...but who am I to say that someone else shouldn't or couldn't be?

There. I'm done. I think that's all I have to say about the topic.

Posted: **Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:14 pm**

My observation: anyone can have Something to Say. Having Something to Say comes from within, and involves no-one else. Communicating an Idea requires that you actually consider how someone else is hearing it, and expressing it in a way intended to help them understand. This guy has Something to Say, and is a total failure at Communicating.

If memory serves from when I read that at the original forum, the OP chick had one posting to her history, since she signed in just to ask the question, and Mr Jackwad had like 14 posts to his name- obviously he's not a grey eminence on that forum and I bet the regulars are just thrilled that he's now their figurehead.

Posted: **Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:21 pm**

Hassle not, lest ye be hassled.

Posted: **Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:36 pm**

Indeed, it's really no wonder I never married.

Different priorities, I guess.

(Or maybe I'm really just a big jerk.)

Posted: **Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:36 pm**

BackDoorBarbie wrote:
...

just saying- this guy is a dumbass- and thats not my vagina talking.

When I read the part of his post where he says:

You're a DreamKiller. You kill a guy's dreams, take away his future, tie him down with a fat mortgage and too many babies, and turn him into just another miserable guy wondering, "How the hell did I get here?"

...that kinda told me all I need to know about him and whatever woman had the misfortune to get involved with him.

Some women put themselves in a position where they choose to give up autonomy to be part of a "unit" and then end up resenting the man for choices that she made for herself.

Maybe I'm assuming a completely inaccurate context. Maybe both of them just need to get a brief lesson about how hobby-vehicles are rarely, if ever, any sort of sound "investment".

...or maybe the guy in the OP scenario is one of those guys who wanted a woman who will play the helpless damsel for him and she should resolve herself to either live with it or move on.

One thing I am sure of, relationships never work out where one individual gets involved with another individual and then goes to work on changing that individual into someone else.

Posted: **Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:34 pm**

BackDoorBarbie wrote:
...

additionally i wanted to add something to your other post about the different kind of women in motorcycles.

...

I submit to you that those are more appropriately sub-categories. Regardless of how we come to our first experience/introduction to motorcycles, we find our own motivations/reward for continuing with them, or else we fall over, scrape our knees, and then list the bike for-sale in craigslist the following week. I'm not including those "tourists" in my imagined "system of classification". In your example, assuming that the woman-in-question chooses to stay involved in the 2-wheeled-world for any length of time, you could also add a sub-category for "motorcycle as fashion-accessory" - but then there are plenty of men for whom that is primary motivation as well...

...but I'm drifting pretty far-afield from the original topic - yeah, "Dear Abby" would have been a lot less-offensive.

oh yeah, and a PS...

...I should have done a better job of connecting "motorcycling" as an analog for "wrenching" when it comes to activities that are commonly-perceived as "masculine interests". ...but I know even fewer women who are mechanics than I know women who are motorcyclists.

Posted: **Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:58 pm**

BDB -

That's what I was getting at, in an indirect way. The OP asked her question in a factual, businesslike sort of way devoid of any hint of whiny entitlement and that first reply came loaded with bad attitude and more projection and baggage than the Titanic. That really made me wonder what that guy's deal was, his history with women, that sort of thing.

Such extreme bitterness and misogyny rarely appears spontaneously.

Posted: **Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:05 pm**

12ci wrote: Firstly, what is your guys' opinion on what he should do? Secondly, how much do you think he could make parting it versus just the whole car as is?

The second question reveals an unspoken assumption that the guy picked up on.

"My boyfriend went out and bought this jeep for way too much, and he's been sinking more money into it. He's been obsessing over this thing, and I want him to get rid of it. When he does that for me, which way is better, turning it into spare parts, or selling it whole?"

So let's put this into context. You find yourself a 1962 Triumph on Craigslist. Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, who would part with something like THAT?! Sure, the guy wants $3,000, but it's a classic!

You take it home. Do some restoration work. All original parts, costs you another $2,500 tracking everything down, but it's beautiful. Then the engine conks out. No originals available, but you found a guy who can mill you some replica parts for another $700, and you have all the tools you need for a complete teardown and rebuild.

You log onto the UTMC one Saturday night after working on it, and you see your girlfriend/boyfriend has registered and is asking, "What do you think (you) should do? Would (you) get more for parting it out, or selling the whole thing?"

Posted: **Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:17 pm**

Gahread wrote: The second question reveals an unspoken assumption that the guy picked up on.

"My boyfriend went out and bought this jeep for way too much, and he's been sinking more money into it. He's been obsessing over this thing, and I want him to get rid of it. When he does that for me, which way is better, turning it into spare parts, or selling it whole?"

So let's put this into context. You find yourself a 1962 Triumph on Craigslist. Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, who would part with something like THAT?! Sure, the guy wants $3,000, but it's a classic!

You take it home. Do some restoration work. All original parts, costs you another $2,500 tracking everything down, but it's beautiful. Then the engine conks out. No originals available, but you found a guy who can mill you some replica parts for another $700, and you have all the tools you need for a complete teardown and rebuild.

You log onto the UTMC one Saturday night after working on it, and you see your girlfriend/boyfriend has registered and is asking, "What do you think (you) should do? Would (you) get more for parting it out, or selling the whole thing?"

Except that a common 14 year old Jeep Cherokee isn't anything like a rare 48 year old Triumph. A completely restored '96 Cherokee isn't anything special as far as cars go and won't be worth much money, unlike that '62 Triumph.

I've spent too much on project cars, and a common, 17 year old $1,000 car with 7k in work in it isn't an $8,000 car, it's a $3,000 car. I knew I'd never make the money back, and I knew it was a bad deal financially, but I wanted that specific car in that color with those specific options and I had several reliable daily drivers already while this one was getting built. Was that the case with this guy? Nobody knows but them.

We don't know if it is the guy's daily driver that he needs to go to work in, or a fun weekend project off-roader, or something else. We don't know if money is tight or he has tons of cash to burn, or somewhere in between. Context matters.

PS - as long as we're floating hypotheticals, what about something like this, rather than the '62 Triumph?

Posted: **Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:22 pm**

stiles wrote: PS - as long as we're floating hypotheticals, what about something like this, rather than the '62 Triumph?

I'll laugh my ass off at the guy who spent way too much money on that... thing. He'll tell me I just don't get it. And he'll be right. I'll still laugh at him though.

Whether it's bikes, pimping a Honda Civic, firearms, survivalism, Pokemon, fantasy football, video games, physical fitness, crocheting, scrapbooking, or compulsively watching whatever is on television, everyone has something they're passionate about. Sometimes it's a hobby, sometimes it becomes an obsession. Ultimately, it's your passion.

I'll grant a lot of leeway for wife/husband/co-parent. Once you get married or have a child together, a lot of the "me" disappears and gets replaced with "us". A stable relationship, income and home becomes very important. Compromise is important.

A girlfriend/boyfriend? If they don't get it, that's okay. They can either accept it, or move on. My girlfriend has tried to tell me I needed to sell my bike, because it's dangerous. She only meant it in my best interest, of course. A few months after I started riding, I dropped it at speed. American drivers tend to be very unsafe around motorcycles, and you're at a lot higher risk without a ton of steel around you. Statistically, cars are just plain safer.

It was quite the lively conversation.

Posted: **Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:37 pm**

minute that stops, I am out of here.

UTMC

this guy ain't dear abby...

this guy ain't dear abby...

Re: this guy ain't dear abby...

Re: this guy ain't dear abby...

Re: this guy ain't dear abby...