UTMC

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wow, that was hard to watch.

Training that draw properly, and with a dummy round would have saved that guy an awful lot of pride...

/RM

Why was he so close to the target, he could have just gut-punched the other guy and been able to walk better afterwards.

Bigshankhank wrote:Why was he so close to the target, he could have just gut-punched the other guy and been able to walk better afterwards.

The idea here is to train for the event that someone has closed the distance with you and requires something more than a fist to halt their advance. Sure you can gut-punch paper targets all day, but maybe it's someone you don't want to punch, like someone with a large knife or a really filthy hobo/government worker?

/RM

why not just shoot him in the leg then. I mean His leg.

xtian wrote:why not just shoot him in the leg then. I mean His leg.

Firearms are actually notoriously difficult to aim without using the sights, even very proficient trick shooters have difficulty firing from the hip and for the average police officer it's a skill they probably never even get to try to practice, not to mention it's only really useful in this one specialized situation. Should you ever witness a range full of blind firing officers I want photos

The goal with this particular tactic is center of mass, partially because statistically the highest percentage of one shot stops comes from a solid center of mass hit and partially because center of mass is a much easier target in a panic firing situation. With all that adrenalin pumping movements become jerky and exaggerated and suddenly a leg is a poor target.

/RM

roadmissile wrote:

xtian wrote:why not just shoot him in the leg then. I mean His leg.

Firearms are actually notoriously difficult to aim without using the sights, even very proficient trick shooters have difficulty firing from the hip and for the average police officer it's a skill they probably never even get to try to practice, not to mention it's only really useful in this one specialized situation. Should you ever witness a range full of blind firing officers I want photos

The goal with this particular tactic is center of mass, partially because statistically the highest percentage of one shot stops comes from a solid center of mass hit and partially because center of mass is a much easier target in a panic firing situation. With all that adrenalin pumping movements become jerky and exaggerated and suddenly a leg is a poor target.

/RM

Well, that explains it. His own damn fault.
Fool loaded a leg-seeking bullet.

roadmissile wrote:

Bigshankhank wrote:Why was he so close to the target, he could have just gut-punched the other guy and been able to walk better afterwards.

The idea here is to train for the event that someone has closed the distance with you and requires something more than a fist to halt their advance. Sure you can gut-punch paper targets all day, but maybe it's someone you don't want to punch, like someone with a large knife or a really filthy hobo/government worker?

/RM

And I think this very nicely demonstrates why the firarm is not an ideal weapon in such an instance. But I don't get into a lot of fights so what the fuck do I know.

Bigshankhank wrote:And I think this very nicely demonstrates why the firarm is not an ideal weapon in such an instance. But I don't get into a lot of fights so what the fuck do I know.

Don't blame poor execution on a sound if specialized tactic, imagine you're a five foot three, slight of build female police and it's a six five two hundred and fifty pound guy on pcp with a sharpened screwdriver coming at you, what weapon do you feel would be ideal?

/RM

roadmissile wrote: Don't blame poor execution on a sound if specialized tactic, imagine you're a five foot three, slight of build female police and it's a six five two hundred and fifty pound guy on pcp with a sharpened screwdriver coming at you, what weapon do you feel would be ideal?
/RM

I have no doubt that this tactic can be executed properly, clearly this is a bad example, no argument there. Nevertheless if said screwdriver wielding large mammal is chest to chest with the aforementioned itty-bitty police officer, I would be more concerned with drawing a weapon that the offender is close enough to pull from my hand before I could get it into a firing position. However this officer would have a baton and the training on how to use it in exactly this circumstance, which is the weapon I would prefer to as is easier and more specifically designed for this particular type of attack. Now if the pistol were already drawn and aimed, then sure the pistol is the go-to tool of this situation, but clearly that is not the case we are talking about here.
Correct me if I am wrong, a pistol is more of a 5 - 25 feet away kind of weapon, no? Honestly I am not much of a firearm guy but that has always been my perception of them.

Rev wrote:Also, is this guy a cop, or just wearing a funny hat?

I was thinking mall ninja, but it's entirely possible, I've seen plenty of police do silly things with firearms. Imagine explaining this to your boss...

On the gun grab/baton thing, this is supposed to make it as hard as possible to grab the firearm, quick into action, weapon held close to the body where it's much harder to grab compared to a proper shooting stance. Personally as kind of a big monkey myself were I the attacker I'd take my chances with the baton well before the firearm, but I think you may be overestimating what someone can do with a baton.

/RM

machismo for the win.

my ex did that as a 16 year old. walked the two miles back to the farmhouse and collapsed on his bed. his folks thought he was just sick until his mom took off his boots and found a bit of blood in one of them. the scar is on his knee and the bullet is still next to his ankle.

Honestly, I think the moral of the story here is that if you're somehow dumb enough to let the bad guys get that close in the first place, you're doing something wrong.
The best way to avoid having to shoot someone is to 1: don't get into situations that require you to carry a firearm and 2: avoid conflict.

Okay, now you can jump all over me on behalf of cops and anti-terrorist types but frankly I will fall back on the original statement.

Even barring screwdrivers etc, your chances of surviving a screwdriver attack are better than a knife or gun. So if you can justify killing someone who points a screwdriver at you... well, have fun in court.

The trigger is not a handle by which you pull a gun from the holster.

Oops.
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Sisyphus wrote:Honestly, I think the moral of the story here is that if you're somehow dumb enough to let the bad guys get that close in the first place, you're doing something wrong.
The best way to avoid having to shoot someone is to 1: don't get into situations that require you to carry a firearm and 2: avoid conflict.

Okay, now you can jump all over me on behalf of cops and anti-terrorist types but frankly I will fall back on the original statement.

Even barring screwdrivers etc, your chances of surviving a screwdriver attack are better than a knife or gun. So if you can justify killing someone who points a screwdriver at you... well, have fun in court.

Any law abiding citizen who carries a firearm lives by your first two rules regardless of if they have a firearm on their person or not.

If I were to be pointing a firearm at someone then I would be genuinely, no-fooling afraid for my life and entirely out of options and alternatives. In that situation, as they say, first things first.

Rabbit_Fighter wrote:The trigger is not a handle by which you pull a gun from the holster.

This is the real moral of the story.

The bad guy getting that close is a scenario that potentially occurs no matter how intelligent you are, in the real world shit sometimes just goes pear shaped.

Feel free to interchange 'sharpened screwdriver' for 'fire axe' if that makes you feel better, but if someone intends to do murder unto you it may well be with a relatively innocuous object.

/RM

The DEA agent in Piccini's video is, IMO, stupider than the cop / mall ninja in RM's. RM's guy made the cardinal mistake of having his finger on the trigger. The DEA guy didn't even drop the mag when he supposedly "made safe" the weapon.

Mall ninja should've been practicing with a snap cap oh about 500 times before using live ammo.

Rev wrote:

Dave wrote: Any law abiding citizen who carries a firearm lives by your first two rules regardless of if they have a firearm on their person or not.

That statement is only true because if they point a gun in error they cease to be law abiding.

Personally I think it has a lot more to do with not wanting to kill a person if you can at all avoid it for a whole spectrum of reasons.

roadmissile wrote:

Rabbit_Fighter wrote:The trigger is not a handle by which you pull a gun from the holster.

This is the real moral of the story.

The bad guy getting that close is a scenario that potentially occurs no matter how intelligent you are, in the real world shit sometimes just goes pear shaped.

Feel free to interchange 'sharpened screwdriver' for 'fire axe' if that makes you feel better, but if someone intends to do murder unto you it may well be with a relatively innocuous object.

/RM

I saw this awhile ago and also saw a post he made on youtube, explaining what had happened. The guy fancies himself a firearms expert, but doesn't know shit (there are some other hilarious videos of him practicing drills, where he doesn't shoot himself but looks just about as stupid).

His explanation was something about using a holster that was unfamiliar, and bumping the safety when he drew, or some other such nonsense. It was kind of like listening to somebody describe how they "had to lay it down."

Don't put your finger on the trigger until you are on target.

The moral of this story has nothing to do with whether or not firearms are a good thing for people to carry (that's a separate debate). If you are going to carry a firearm (even if only at a range), have a fucking clue how to handle one.

Rabbit_Fighter wrote:If you are going to carry a firearm (even if only at a range), have a fucking clue how to handle one.

That, yes that right there.

I used to carry (legally) as well. I came to the same conclusions as Rev. I still own guns and use them.
I just think It'd be more gratifying to kill someone with my bare hands.

Sisyphus wrote:I just think It'd be more gratifying to kill someone with my bare hands.

+ a lot.

This thread contains two of my favorite terms, "pear shaped" and "Mall Ninja".

They probably should be used together more often.

of course, they edited out the beginning, where he says

"here, hold my beer...this is going to be jangleplatz!"

Rabbit_Fighter wrote:It was kind of like listening to somebody describe how they "had to lay it down.".

HEY!!!

I've had to lay it down.

^ Me too, for reals. It was either that or hit a bunch of kids. My sidestand was stuck down on a left-hander. Probably could have avoided them on the way into the lake but, well, whatever. I wasn't going to risk that.

Zer0 wrote:

Rabbit_Fighter wrote:It was kind of like listening to somebody describe how they "had to lay it down.".

HEY!!!

I've had to lay it down.

Me too.

Everytime my speed exceeded my ability.

Bo_9 wrote:

Zer0 wrote:

Rabbit_Fighter wrote:It was kind of like listening to somebody describe how they "had to lay it down.".

HEY!!!

I've had to lay it down.

Me too.

Everytime my speed exceeded my ability.

Not me. That corner came up on me faster than it normally does.