UTMC

By now we've all heard about various state petitions calling for peaceful secession from the United States. Along with that, we've seen the voters of Colorado and Washington state vote for the legal recreational use of Marijuana. To an extent.

What are these people trying to tell the Federal Government?

We want to peacefully smoke out dubbies?

Honestly though, I think these two issues are taken up by separate groups. While there may be some overlap, I do not think one ideology is intrinsic in the other .

Looking forward to being a resident of Cascadia!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascadia_% ... ovement%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What they should be telling the federal government is that the union of states is voluntary and can be dissolved at any time.

Also,

United States Constitution, Article X wrote:The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Well, the ethnic cleansing should go off easy enough thanks to the 1st amendment if it comes to it.

The bowling enthusiasts are a separate issue.

Secessionists, please. If you look at the maps of slave states and the new trend of so-called secessionist states of late, there's not much difference. Then, as now, overt racism is nicely couched in terms of "states' rights." They can have that argument, sure, but if they want to leave the union they're going to have a hard time as a stand-alone country. Most of those states take a shitload of Federal handouts as-is, and even without that the liklihood of said bankrupt states mounting a credible government, much less an army or even the means to feed itself are pretty slim.
Much ado about nothing.
This, from the BBC:

More than 100,000 Americans have petitioned the White House to allow their states to secede from the US, after President Barack Obama's re-election.

The appeals were filed on the White House's We the People website.

Most of the 20 states with petitions voted for Republican Mitt Romney.

The US constitution contains no clause allowing states to leave the union. By Monday night the White House had not responded.

In total, more than 20 petitions have been filed. One for Texas has reached the 25,000-signature threshold at which the White House promises a response.
'Blatant abuses'

The last time states officially seceded, the US Civil War followed.

Most of the petitions merely quote the opening line of America's Declaration of Independence from Britain, in which America's founders stated their right to "dissolve the political bands" and form a new nation.

Currently, the most popular petition is from Texas, which voted for Mr Romney by some 15 percentage points more than it did for the Democratic incumbent.

The text complains of "blatant abuses" of Americans' rights.

It cites the Transportation Security Administration, whose staff have been accused of intrusive screening at airports.

Ironic, isn't it? The TSA, created under Bush and doing it's thang ever since, and now they want to secede over it. Bullshit, wacky wackadoodle kookoo.

Here's a contemporary map of the US before the Civil War:


Here's the only map I could find that sort of shows what the modern-day secessionist movement is currenly thought to be from a self-proclaimed secessionist:


And here's what Fox News reported. Just for some perspective:


Texas V White (wiki link at bottom) removed the rights of any state to legally secede in 1869, and all those petitions are getting 3-4k signatures, in states with populations in the tens of millions and up. Obviously NOT going to be a majority of the people in the state, and if only one state tries to leave then the military will simply be mobilized to stop them.

Texas has no special rights as a state just cause it was it's own nation for a while.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's a wonder babies aren't starving in dixieland what with all the spilled milk thereabouts...

Pintgudge wrote:Looking forward to being a resident of Cascadia!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascadia_% ... ovement%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Me too but I have long journey from the middle of the bible belt. Maybe we can create the UTMC version of Oregon Trail.

That map makes Cascadia look huge. How is Nevada included?
Also I notice that my own personal seccessionist movent isn't mentioned.
Viva Tahoe Free State!
When the shit pops off I'll be up there with a Moisin and some XC skis, patrolling that lonely border.

This is an interesting problem. The people who keep voting for the people who insist that beggars can't be choosers (i.e. conservatives) want to get separated from their benefactors.
The people who come up with this are, evidently, fucking stupid.
But if one state were to secede, and the military was used to put a stop to these shenanigans, the situation that might well follow is exemplified in history. I'm thinking Northern Ireland.
Only the nutters and murderers would be spread all over the country, there are evidently tens-of-thousands of people who support the ideology behind secession. People with easy and legal access to guns and fairly easy access to explosives, from what I hear.
But that would only be something to worry about if one state did, in fact, secede, which is fairly unlikely.

What isn't unlikely and is the true danger here is that a few thousand assholes decide to take up arms against that "illegal" government anyway. Anyone remember the militia movement? I'm thinking specifically of the Hutaree who invented bookshelves full of legal fictions and went placing liens on public buildings and stuff like that. It's entirely possible that this "undemocratic" (that's what they'll call it) refusal by the federal government to let states secede may just lead enough of these nutjobs to gang up and turn to violence against the evil oppressor.

To clarify: I don't think that violent "resistance" to the federal government (or plain terrorism, whatever you want to call it) will become a matter of thousands of people throughout the country taking part. But a few dozen may choose to do so, and they could probably count on a few thousand active and many more passive supporters. All it takes is one asshole to ruin the party for everyone. Likewise, all it takes is a few dozen assholes with guns to make life unpleasant for millions.

Sisyphus wrote:The last time states officially seceded, the US Civil War followed.

How dare you compare a moderately competent President like Barack Obama with the treacherous villainy of that loathsome tyrant? A bad precedent does not need to be repeated. Some guy's girlfriend left him, so he stalked and killed her. Breakups are a bad idea! Is that what you are saying?

The TSA, created under Bush and doing it's thang ever since, and now they want to secede over it. Bullshit, wacky wackadoodle kookoo.

Hideously inconsistent, but the TSA is bullshit. The nutters have the right stance for the wrong reason.

DerGolgo wrote:What isn't unlikely and is the true danger here is that a few thousand assholes decide to take up arms against that "illegal" government anyway. Anyone remember the militia movement? I'm thinking specifically of the...

American Revolutionary War. The reigning government is always temporary.

I normally don't do this, but I am officially stating that the nerds with their bogus objections to Obama are indeed wackadoos. I dislike Obama because we still have political prisoners in Guantanamo, and stuff like that. Ignore the racist kooks and ask yourself if the federal war on pot and the intrusive charade of the TSA are worthy of these words-

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends (e.g. the pursuit of Happiness), it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government...[W]hen a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

The People certainly have a duty to cast off a rogue government. It is debatable what qualifies as a rogue government, but to shirk the duty is beneath contempt.

/RM

I sent my own petition in to secede. My pants will be my country, and my elbow will be chancellor.

The Shifty Jesus wrote:I sent my own petition in to secede. My pants will be my country, and my elbow will be chancellor.

Bah, I shall nominate a rock for grand chancellor, and together we will laugh at your pants.

Bigshankhank wrote:

The Shifty Jesus wrote:I sent my own petition in to secede. My pants will be my country, and my elbow will be chancellor.

Bah, I shall nominate a rock for grand chancellor, and together we will laugh at your pants.

Careful, he might have those disposable paper pants (like they put on visiting suits in dirty factories). Paper beats rock, doesn't it?

red wrote: Me too but I have long journey from the middle of the bible belt. Maybe we can create the UTMC version of Oregon Trail.

--Jaeger

Jaeger wrote:

red wrote: Me too but I have long journey from the middle of the bible belt. Maybe we can create the UTMC version of Oregon Trail.

--Jaeger

Yup. Instead of wagon wheels, I'll be bringing belts for the Buell.

I am surprised this has not come up....


DOes Texas not have the right to break away from the USA? I was told, by a Texan though, that they did due to the fact that they were an independent nation prior to joining the USA.
Does this same privilage extend to Hawaii? They were independent, even had a King and Queen, and their own monetary system before being absorbed by the USA.

roadmissile wrote:

/RM

Does this mean I could legally live and work in Seattle or San Fransisco? I don't see any need for me to journey into Jesusland anyway, other than maybe Vegas. I kinda like Vegas.

thrasherbill wrote:

roadmissile wrote:

/RM

Does this mean I could legally live and work in Seattle or San Fransisco? I don't see any need for me to journey into Jesusland anyway, other than maybe Vegas. I kinda like Vegas.

There's some jinglepants roads in Utah I'd be sad to never ride again.

calamari kid wrote:
There's some jinglepants roads in Utah I'd be sad to never ride again.

I'd be willing to give up Utah to not have to marry Zach in order to move to Seattle.

JoJoLesh wrote:DOes Texas not have the right to break away from the USA? I was told, by a Texan though, that they did due to the fact that they were an independent nation prior to joining the USA.
Does this same privilage extend to Hawaii? They were independent, even had a King and Queen, and their own monetary system before being absorbed by the USA.

Texas V White.
Texas has no special rights as a state just cause it was it's own nation for a while.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Though the matter of leaving the union isn't addressed in the Constitution, the Supreme Court suggested that the Constitution ordained the "perpetuity and indissolubility of the Union". The court did allow some possibility of the divisibility "through revolution, or through consent of the States."
So while it isn't crystal clear whether or not secession is purely "legal," it is clear that there is precedent that would require a majority. A few thousand angry white dudes isn't a majority. Thank God.

So, if the rest of us said, "Texas, we don't really like you all that much anyway, so, why don't you just give us our Dominatrix, and then piss off",then they could take their marbles and go home?

Hm. Thinking about this, I had the following idea:
The majority of the people who sign this thing will, probably, consider themselves to be "REAL!! Americans", properly following in the footsteps of the founding fathers and all that, unlike them darn other folk, proper 'mericans. Certain they and only they know how the country should be run, what is right, proper and moral. They KNOW that no one can possibly love their country as much as they do. You know the type.
So, for these sort of people to demand secession...that is beyond burning the village to save it. This is cognitive dissonance on a truly epic scale.

They believe America has already been destroyed in all but name. The village has been bulldozed to make way for a concentration camp run by brown people and women. Seriously, that's what they're are saying. I guess it's like the homophobia joke, these old white men and their Stepford wives are so unimaginative that they assume they're going to be treated as badly as they've treated minorities in the past, and they're absolutely fucking terrified.

rolly wrote:They believe America has already been destroyed in all but name.

Wait, seriously, y'all don't think this? Like for at least the last decade* or two? Are you all that young or just not paying attention?

I live in a country where there are traffic cameras, porno scanners or gropings at the airport, political prisoners in Guantanamo, warrantless searches, and 30% of the workforce are government employees... Exactly what connection do you still see to the ideals that this country was founded on and enjoyed for about two centuries?

* Bush Jr. was at least as bad as Obama, IMHO the 2nd worst President the country ever had.

happycommuter wrote: * Bush Jr. was at least as bad as Obama, IMHO the 2nd worst President the country ever had.

slightly confusing sentence structure...do you mean that Obama is the second worst President, or that Shub is the second worst ?

i'm almost afraid to ask...who, in your humble opinion, is the worst President the US has had ?

Apparently nobody can top Lincoln, from what I understand. And he was so bad they put him on the 5 dollar bill.

Seriously, when you start taking notice of who was the worst and why, there's a good reason to despise just about any past president. The trend toward more power flowing to the executive branch has been happening at least since Johnson.
IMO, Reagan takes the cake. The first true neoliberal, who guaranteed the new neoliberalism would be made possible by giving it the regulatory rule of the state.
Obama is no saint, either. I think a lot of people recognize that. But to claim Obama as the tipping point for secession after 8 years of Bush, that's just bullshit.

Interesting note: When the going gets tough and the country is run and run again by someone they don't like, red staters want to drop out. I don't recall much secession hoopla from the blue states when the shrub got reelected, or later when his popularity got worse still. Your blue state liberals don't run away but prefer tp tough it out, it seems.