The firearm battle!!!

[Bo_9]

Heck, usually you as a private person are not even allowed to arrest or hold somebody but killing isn't that much of a problem?!?

http://www.kscoplaw.com/crimcode/Article32.htm#21-3216

Hehe! My state actually allows me to arrest people who break the law. What a novel idea, enforcing the law is EVERYONES job.

http://www.kscoplaw.com/crimcode/Article32.htm#21-3211

I can also defend my home, property, myself, my family, or someone walking down the street using any means that I deem necessary as long as it seems reasonable. So no running over people with a bulldozer for trespassing, but if you are getting beat to death in front the 7eleven and I believe you will be killed it is a different story.

It must suck to not have these rights...

Speaking of looking from the outside in. Here is an American view of South Africa -
http://www.gunowners.org/op0434.htm

[satire]Yes it sounds very nice to not be allowed to own firearms, sign ne up.[/satire]

[Bo_9]

- BDB, like DerGolgo wrote I didn't want to demonstrate my mighty kung-foo powers (which I don't possess) but just make it clear that it is much easier to shot me dead from a distance than to have a show-off face to face.

I'd also like to note that it is a LOT easier to shot things dead from really close than it is from a distance.*






*The use of the word "things" is in no way meant to dehumanize, alienate ,slander ,insult ,or upset anyone. The word "things" is used here to allow an honest statement as I have never shot dead any person from really close, including Badi. However any living thing, well okay not the plants since they did not really die, so any mammal I have shot at was much easier to shoot dead from really close that from a distance. Thats why you need to try to get as close as possible.

[badi]

Oh dear, this is going to be complicated. BDB, my last remark about winning the discussion or proving my point by getting shot was meant to be, uh, funny! I'm not the least fond of being shot, really. So, thanks for your help but, please, put your gun down ... pretty please... Nevertheless, wouldn't it be a good point to show how dangerous guns are?
Also I'm probably the least competitive guy you'll ever know, not interested in winning anything. Winning is more of an american pastime don't you think?
BTW, I don't find it difficult not to point a pistol in the direction of other people. Roundabout 100 years back, our school made a field trip to a police station. There little badi had the questionable pleasure to hold a loaded gun in his eager hands and litarally wasn't able to point in any other direction than the floor. I just couldn't bring it over me. Fear? No! But lots of respect of its power.

Rabbit and Bo9: I'm not the least little bit interested what those stupid SAfricans are thinking about guns and violence. Heck, most people here are 50 years back in their social development. Working women have to pay higher taxes than men, only a few years ago they disallowed teachers to hit pupils, 30% cannot swim, 50% of all drivers have neither licence nor insurance and rape is always the fault of the woman. Please allow me the freedom to find them unacceptable as role-models.
And even here, I can not arrest somebody. Even if I see a thief running away I'm not allowed to grab him. He could sue me for "deprivation of liberty"! And he most probably will! Under the new constitution everybody is supposed to be FREE! That's stupid, I know. But still, shooting him down would be even more stupid.
Also I don't think that shooting a burglar is self-defense! It's defence of my TV or stereo or whatever he tried to steal. Shooting him is a harsh measure I think.

No, I don't have an idea about how to get rid of ALL firearms! But by not owning one myself and by having discussions like this I'm doing something. A step in the right direction I guess. I'm only one man but one has to start somewhere. I'm optimistic!

Still I don't get it why I have to be educated in the fine art of handling a gun? Isn't it enough to know that it will enable me to kill other people? Killing is not in my intention so why should I learn how to?

On a lighter note I have to admit that I couldn't buy a gun, even if you guys convince me to do so. I'm married and gladly for you, you don't have to deal with my wife.....

[DerGolgo]

One thing about the dangers of firearms that, so far, hasn't been mentioned in this thread and which I am only throwing in for good measure:
A good number of police officers who get shot on duty actually eat lead from their own weapon!
So, anyone who feels safer by carrying a gun....what make you think that somehow you are better at keeping your gun in your own hands than a police officer with all sorts of training in handling evildoers and firearms? Something involving the matrix?

@badi: One thing about Jerkmany that you have to admit is nice: If you happen upon a wanted criminal or catch anyone in the act of commiting a crime (not misdemeanour but felony), you many "hold" them until the police arrives.

[guzzi]

...an armed society is a polite society...noticed that when living in Virgina where , if you wanted it you could get it...

[guzzi]

DerGolgo: Yes criminals shoot cops with there own weapons. Yes I can be killed by my own knife or gun. Thats one of the risks and its just splitting hairs on the have/have not issue.

Badi: please stop. You don't like guns. We get it. Dont buy one, dont take the time to learn how to handle one, don't learn another point of view in order to have a less lopsided point of view about guns/ Americans. These things are your choice.

[badi]

Badi: please stop. You don't like guns. We get it. Dont buy one, dont take the time to learn how to handle one, don't learn another point of view in order to have a less lopsided point of view about guns/ Americans. These things are your choice.

Sorry, can't stop now. Not yet, my friend, not yet! But I will stop eventually if you can please explain to me (in simple words and very very slowly) how I learn another point of view by learning how to handle a gun. And please, guys, make your minds up. You tell me I can choose not to learn about guns while BDB wants to make it even a duty and have it teached in schools.
See, I don't have to get an education in elephant handling to learn that it will probably not make such a good pet animal for my kids. At least not when I'm living in a small apartment on the 23rd floor. I don't think that my point of view will be changed when I book the course.

Also I don't think that my point of view is so lopsided since it's shared by a majority of the world population. In case you didn't know: Gun owners are still a minority. I don't know the statistics from the US but worldwide it's a minimal group of civilists who own guns.
Simple math: A very small minority of people are actually evil and/or wacko and own a gun in order to do criminal stuff. A bigger group of supposedly righteous people (but still a minority) is weak enough to give in to that supposedly threatening group of evil wackos and goes buying guns in order to fight the evil off. WEAK I say! Think about all the time and money you have to spend. And let's not forget the paranoid mindset you have to get in.
No, my choice is to have no fear!

[bdb too lazy to log in]

i say choose to do what you want to do. i think it is the responsibility of everyone to learn about them and i think that since we cannot get away from them, ever, everyone should know. it will never be required in school, but i think like driving, it should. just like everyone elses opinion, that one is just mine. you dont like them, fine, i dont care.

the truth of the matter like randall and guzzi has already pointed out, you are using generalizations about a certain thing and not backing it up with facts. it seems to be a common thing with you in general....

every time i get into a discussion about guns, i walk in with the understanding that i am probably not going to agree with them. but i continue to have discussions because i like to hear their opinions to expand my own knowledge and understanding of other views.

so you dont like guns. fine. but until you have some actual substance to bring to the table, shut up. we get it

[guzzi]

...OK...In order to dispute a view point you have to familiarize yourself at least a bit. You can't hate without experiancing...
The worst that will happen by going to a gun range and firing a couple off? You REALLY hate guns in a way you thought not possible before. At the best? You get a glimmer of appreciation for why some of us like the little machines. Speaking for myself, I don't want to convert you at all. I'd like to see you at least step in another set of shoes and try to understand. Thats all...

And since when did being in the minority carry the implication of "wrongness"? Ghandi, Buddha, Christ were all in the minority at one time.

[badi]

the truth of the matter like randall and guzzi has already pointed out, you are using generalizations about a certain thing and not backing it up with facts. it seems to be a common thing with you in general....

You want facts? Okay, people kill other people with guns. That's a fact. A fact I happen do dislike. Apart from that I find that facts are not of too much importance in a thread like this. It's about feelings, emotions, morality, ethics and human behaviour. There's not too much reason to back anything up in a philosophical discussion, is it?

I'd like to see you at least step in another set of shoes and try to understand. Thats all...

Stepping in another set of shoes would be to experience first hand how it feels to be threatened by, say, a robber with a pistol. Just firing off a few rounds at a shooting range wouldn't be much of a mindblowing experience. I think it would rather inflict me with false feelings about my powers.

And since when did being in the minority carry the implication of "wrongness"? Ghandi, Buddha, Christ were all in the minority at one time.

True! But since when did being in the majority carry the implication of being "lopsided"? I was just fighting off your understanding of me being the strange and lonely weirdo with the totally outsider's point of view.

[Ban Guzzi]

I was just fighting off your understanding of me being the strange and lonely weirdo with the totally outsider's point of view.

fair enough. This conversation is over.

[Nathaniel Justus]

FOR THE RECORD

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians,
unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1928, Germany established gun control. From 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews, gypsies,
homosexuals, the mentally ill, and others, who were unable to defend themselves, were
rounded up and exterminated.

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, approximately 20
million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1935, China established gun control. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents
were unable to defend themselves and were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1956, Cambodia established gun control. From 1975 to1977, one million "educated"
people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1964, Guatemala established gun control. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians,
unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1970, Uganda established gun control. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to
defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

That places total victims who lost their lives - because they were unable to defend their liberty - to no less than 56 million during the 20th century alone. I guess we finally have definitive proof that gun control does work!

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
---Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

"Anyone who surrenders his arms because of a cry for public safety does not deserve freedom.
.. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a
last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government... No free man shall ever
be debarred the use of arms... Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those
who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes." - Thomas Jefferson

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient
arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to
abuse them, which would include their own government." ~~ George Washington

"Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentis telum
est" ("A sword is never a killer, it´s a tool in the killer´s hands")
Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)

"Truth is incontrovertible, ignorance can deride it, panic may resent it, malice may
destroy it, but there it is." - Winston Churchill

[xtian]

and I though I was the funny guy around here.

[Rabbit_Fighter]

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people. But monkeys would kill people too if we gave them guns. They have opposable thumbs."

--Eddie Izzard

[DerGolgo]

In 1949, the Federal Republic of Germany established gun control.
Between 1949 and now, zero million defenseless people were murdered by the government.

In 1776, the USA outlawed gun control. Between 1776 and the last century, millions of Native Americans were massacred and driven away from their lands in enormous ethnic clensings.

[Gauss]

In 1776, the USA outlawed gun control. Between 1776 and the last century, millions of Native Americans were massacred and driven away from their lands in enormous ethnic clensings.

Yeah, but the Native Americans had guns so they were able to protect.... ....errrr......ummmmm ..... uhhh...Well in Waco the Branch Davidians had guns and so they were able to....ummmm.... ....hmmm... I guess a couple of rifles aint going to protect you from an army/government determined to wipe yah out....eh?

The whole "the 2nd amendment enables us to rise up against an oppressive government" thing is one of the more rediculous and quaint of all the US historical fables...whatever makes people sleep better I suppose...it's kind of cute.

[Ban Guzzi]

...Jesus..! Candide! I haven't heard that reference in over 15 years! That book is what got me hooked up with one of the more important women in my life...."Candide" was the reason I payed attention to her. She mentioned she had read it in the original French. I was a goner at that point...

s'cuse me while I travel memory lane.....

[jr_bear]

Since the rest of my arguements have already been adressed, I'll just leave you with this thought. At any point in history, would it be possible to stop the creation of guns? IMO, not without stiffiling anything remotely like science. There are probably hundreds of ways to hurl an object with potentially lethal force, in the case of firearms it's chemical reaction, which I might add is the same method employed in our beloved bikes. Do you think that the Internal combustion motor could come into existance without someone trying to apply the technique to a hunk of lead?

[xtian]

Since the rest of my arguements have already been adressed, I'll just leave you with this thought. At any point in history, would it be possible to stop the creation of guns? IMO, not without stiffiling anything remotely like science. There are probably hundreds of ways to hurl an object with potentially lethal force, in the case of firearms it's chemical reaction, which I might add is the same method employed in our beloved bikes. Do you think that the Internal combustion motor could come into existance without someone trying to apply the technique to a hunk of lead?

and the fact that lots of early bikes were built by weapons factories who had the right technologies to built them
Early belgian bikes are anyway.

[DerGolgo]

and the fact that lots of early bikes were built by weapons factories who had the right technologies to built them
Early belgian bikes are anyway.

Like in Britain....Birmingham Small Arms....and also in Poland. Don't forget Poland!

[badi]

Badi, I dislike male pattern baldness but it happens to be a part of the world.

You, sir, are a baldist! I demand satisfaction. But please let me have the choice of weapon. I'll go for pointy sticks.
















Baldist: One who is prejudiced against the follicly-challenged