Anarcho-Primitivism vs the UTMC

calamari kid · Post by **calamari kid** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:56 am

rolly · Post by **rolly** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:21 am

I'm a cowboy, on an aluminium horse I ride.

absent_carlo · Post by **absent_carlo** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:40 pm

I like horses, but have you seen those new light-cycles?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AwvuirS ... re=related

tucko · Post by **tucko** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:06 pm

Dead bikes can always be dumped on Craigslist. Dead horses are a much harder sell.....

guitargeek · Post by **guitargeek** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:03 pm

tucko wrote:Dead bikes can always be dumped on Craigslist. Dead horses are a much harder sell.....

BINGO.

At this point in history, horses are just very, very expensive pets.

Should society fall apart, horses will become even more expensive because they'll actually be useful again.

Were one to prepare for such a breakdown, it stands to reason that one would choose to live in a geographically isolated, agrarian location and possess the means (weapons and trained personnel) to defend such livestock.

JoJoLesh · Post by **JoJoLesh** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:16 pm

tucko wrote:Dead bikes can always be dumped on Craigslist. Dead horses are a much harder sell.....

But they are tasty.

Gahread · Post by **Gahread** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:10 am

erosvamp wrote:A guy I once knew thought that it would be awesome if the world went back to a super primitive state... he was convinced his great strength and stature would put him at the top of the heap, as far as feudal lords go. I would tend to agree with him.

There's always some little punk out there with a scoped rifle and a reloading machine though. It doesn't take much to maintain 1700's-level technology. The hard part is coming up with the concepts in the first place, and that's already been done. The rest is just sweat and practice.

Gahread · Post by **Gahread** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:07 pm

BackDoorBarbie wrote:work smart not hard, and we already have an epic shit ton of knowledge on how to be lazy

Technology- enabling the lazy be lazier since 20,000 BC!

JoJoLesh · Post by **JoJoLesh** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:33 pm

How many gens of living in bunckers would it take to truly bring back another dark age?

Civ collapses tomorrow, and You or I walk out the door, we can go on living a semi-modern life. There are resources on the ground, gas in tanks, food in stores, caned goods in pantries. We'd horde, loot, and riot for a while, but it would settle down eventually. We would not necessarily loose civilization. We would not totally forget.

BUT, if we cant go out the door....
The survivors are forced into hiding, away form surface life, away form the tools of civ. They will die, eventually, and their children or children's children will have to pick up the pieces. Would the knowledge pass that long? I dont think so.

You or I can pick a generator out of a scrap heap. Push come to shove, we could build one. I doubt that someone who has never seen one could do either.

Horse or bike Q. at its base,
I really dont know what I'd pick. I do miss working with horses. At this point I just can not afford one, nor can I dedicate the time to one that It deserves. Those two things is all that keeps me form having one (or more). I face the same dilemma at times with sailing. But a Boat does not notice so much if you don't see it for 6mo, or a whole year.

Something happens that makes fuel for I.C.E. rare/expensive and electricity largely unavailable, thusly horse transport is a viable option I'd go for it in a instant.

One other thing to keep in mind though. On roads, even less than good, a petal bike is about as fast as a horse. Horse walks about 5mph, me ~3, me on bike ~12mph (thats on gravel roads)

erosvamp · Post by **erosvamp** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:00 pm

Gahread wrote:
erosvamp wrote:A guy I once knew thought that it would be awesome if the world went back to a super primitive state... he was convinced his great strength and stature would put him at the top of the heap, as far as feudal lords go. I would tend to agree with him.

There's always some little punk out there with a scoped rifle and a reloading machine though. It doesn't take much to maintain 1700's-level technology. The hard part is coming up with the concepts in the first place, and that's already been done. The rest is just sweat and practice.

This is starting to remind me of a video game I once played...

I assume intelligence was part of the reason he believed this... even if I didn't state that in the sentences above. Intelligence in men I date is like the air I breathe... I take it for granted sometimes.

This hypothetical conversation has gone a very different route in my head and I need to write a stupid fucking paper tonight...
That being said, I doubt the big guys with brains are going to put themselves on top of my giant black horse, therefore making them an excellent target for the previously mentioned punk with a scoped rifle. I assume he is not going to be such a loner in this scenario and I also assume he is not that fucking dumb. Also in my world, there are no fucking guns. Guns are gay.

I know how to shoot... but I hate guns. They are for the weak.
A gun makes you a pussy... and allows pussies to give off the air of dominance. Standing 20 feet from someone and taking their life makes you a coward. Sure, there is a bit of skill in shooting but much more skill is needed when you fight someone face to face.
Being able to defend yourself with your bare hands and your brain makes you a badass.

JoJoLesh · Post by **JoJoLesh** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:22 pm

Quick Q. Maybe for another topic.

Would all of the wondrous advancements post renascence have been made, had there been NO "Dark Age"?

roadmissile · Post by **roadmissile** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:22 pm

erosvamp wrote:Being able to defend yourself with your bare hands and your brain makes you a badass.

If you were using your brain you would almost certainly be avoiding a fight to begin with

/RM

Gahread · Post by **Gahread** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:25 pm

Scoped arbalest, maybe?

I'll take a knife over a fist, a sword over a knife, and a gun over a sword. Feel free to mark me in the laziness enabled by technology column.

BTW, Thief: The Dark Project? AWESOME game.

erosvamp · Post by **erosvamp** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:41 am

roadmissile wrote:
erosvamp wrote:Being able to defend yourself with your bare hands and your brain makes you a badass.
If you were using your brain you would almost certainly be avoiding a fight to begin with

/RM

One would hope.

Gahread · Post by **Gahread** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:00 pm

BackDoorBarbie, have you had the chance to read One Second After, by William Forstchen? It's fascinating reading on how easy it would be to EMP the continental United States, and what realistic consequences might look like.

It's also scary as hell.

MagnusTheBuilder · Post by **MagnusTheBuilder** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:22 pm

Probably not what he meant but whatever, it seems appropriate:

Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Gahread · Post by **Gahread** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:56 pm

BackDoorBarbie wrote: i have not but i will see if i can download it. i have a ton of survivalist friends and we often get into these conversations and often times they quote things that they have read so it would be interesting to see if it is one of the ones they reflect on. he has a background in history of technology, so it would be interesting if he talks much about urban development in terms of how far we could revert

I've run across three main groups of survivalists, and I'm curious which category your friends would fall into (if any):

1. "I've got my gold, since they said on TV I'll need that when the economy implodes, and my gun, and my Official Prepared For Anything (For five low payments) Emergency Kit. Now I'm ready for anything!"

2. "6-12 month supply of canned goods, rotated through my pantry prior to expiration? Check. Five thousand round ammo stockpile, plus optional lead blanks and reloading machine? Check. Deep-drilled well with hand-pumped backup, wood stove / wood pellet heating system, and optional generator? Check. I should probably check my common medication stockpile to make sure nothing's out of date though."

3. "Bob's the organic chemistry guy, Jim's our energy generation expert, and I'm the metallurgy and internal combustion guy. Tires might get to be a problem after a few years, but a good Bessemer converter can resmelt junked auto parts right back into steel blanks for my basement machine shop. With a little luck and Bob's bio-diesel, the pickup trucks should still be running a decade from now."

I've known a few guys in the third group. They're almost universally ultra-right Tea Party doomsayers who will tell anyone around that Obama is driving us into the Great Collapse any day now, aided by Global Cooling and the UN takeover plans. I'd laugh... except given enough of them, they might well be able to put together a functioning early 19th century technology base from scratch along with fragments of the 20th century. And that's nothing to laugh about.

roadmissile · Post by **roadmissile** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:16 pm

Gahread wrote:
BackDoorBarbie wrote: i have not but i will see if i can download it. i have a ton of survivalist friends and we often get into these conversations and often times they quote things that they have read so it would be interesting to see if it is one of the ones they reflect on. he has a background in history of technology, so it would be interesting if he talks much about urban development in terms of how far we could revert
I've run across three main groups of survivalists, and I'm curious which category your friends would fall into (if any):

1. "I've got my gold, since they said on TV I'll need that when the economy implodes, and my gun, and my Official Prepared For Anything (For five low payments) Emergency Kit. Now I'm ready for anything!"

2. "6-12 month supply of canned goods, rotated through my pantry prior to expiration? Check. Five thousand round ammo stockpile, plus optional lead blanks and reloading machine? Check. Deep-drilled well with hand-pumped backup, wood stove / wood pellet heating system, and optional generator? Check. I should probably check my common medication stockpile to make sure nothing's out of date though."

3. "Bob's the organic chemistry guy, Jim's our energy generation expert, and I'm the metallurgy and internal combustion guy. Tires might get to be a problem after a few years, but a good Bessemer converter can resmelt junked auto parts right back into steel blanks for my basement machine shop. With a little luck and Bob's bio-diesel, the pickup trucks should still be running a decade from now."

I've known a few guys in the third group. They're almost universally ultra-right Tea Party doomsayers who will tell anyone around that Obama is driving us into the Great Collapse any day now, aided by Global Cooling and the UN takeover plans. I'd laugh... except given enough of them, they might well be able to put together a functioning early 19th century technology base from scratch along with fragments of the 20th century. And that's nothing to laugh about.

I think most of the Denver Cell are more the type to muse about it as an academic thing on our nights of hanging around and bullshitting about bikes and whatnot, but I doubt anyone puts any real stock in it happening.

/RM

erosvamp · Post by **erosvamp** » Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:34 am

roadmissile wrote:
I think most of the Denver Cell are more the type to muse about it as an academic thing on our nights of hanging around and bullshitting about bikes and whatnot, but I doubt anyone puts any real stock in it happening.
/RM

I have a stock pile of food and medicine. I also have the ability to walk out of my apartment in 10 minutes and never have to come back to it.

You're right RM. Personally, I don't think it's ever going to happen. However, the last place I want to be is deep within a metro area if there ever was a national/global emergency. Hence why I have the ability to flee if needed.

That being said, I also have several ways to get out of my apartment if there ever was a fire in the building.

There is nothing wrong with being prepared. There is something a little off if you spend a chunk of your life planning for the end. I know people like that. I'm totally going to judge them and say that live in a world of fear and probably need a few more constructive hobbies.

Korpen · Post by **Korpen** » Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:41 am

Surprised no one has posted this...

With Rench's blessing:

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/e/_RjMSWhGWak"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/e/_RjMSWhGWak" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

Post by **Beemer Dan** » Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:15 pm

Threads like this are one of the things I absolutely love about our tiny slice of the internet. So many good contributions I'm not sure if I've got anything to add. Ah what the hell, I'm nothing if not a windbag.

Trading my bike for a horse? Not unless I had to. I love horses, they are amazing and majestic creatures, but with all the metal in my hip I think it's likely I wouldn't last more than a week riding one. They scared the hell out me as a kid, but not so much that I couldn't ride one (I think those experiences were part of what got me on a motorbike). I love to think about having one, but two cats seem to be more than I can handle at the moment.

I like civilization. Sure, it's got it's problems, really big ones, but as others have pointed out a larger perspective is often required to see how good we have it. One of the problems we have as a society is that we live as though we are in a world of objects, and consider ourselves objects as well (living, thinking ones). That is a three dimensional world view, and it makes for difficulty because we mostly live in a four dimensional environment, that fourth dimension being time. That means that all of these objects have a point of origin, as well as a place/time where they stop existing. Rather than living in a universe of objects, we exist in one of events. We are events, as are our motorcycles, our Earth and even our thoughts.

From an evolutionary perspective, these events are really just very tiny processes that make up much larger ones. One human life is an event, a tiny contribution to hundreds of thousands of years (we can hope) of the event we call humanity. The behavior or survival of one individual doesn't really count for much in this grand process, only that there is survival. With this in mind, I'm not to worried about any forthcoming doomsday or collapse of civilization. Unless all of humanity is wiped out, we'll find a way to not just get back to where we are now, but likely much better and much faster than we imagine.

I am 99.9% certain that no matter what I do or do not accomplish in life, I will die. This isn't a happy thought at all, but at least I've got the company of six billion other humans and countless other creatures who will all end up going to the same farm in the country. I hate the idea that I will die, but unless something really, really, really, really bad happens, the rest of humanity will keep on. As Garhead pointed out, there are innovations on the horizon that seem next to impossible now, and have a look at the world our grandparents lived in for comparison. Go back to ancient Babylon, almost everything we have in our modern world would have seemed godlike to them. The sky hasn't been the limit for a century, it's now more difficult to actually get through airport security than it is to fly. Not only do we not know what is coming in the far off future, it is likely well beyond our wildest dreams.

As to the survivalist mentality, not only do I think it's unlikely that civilization will collapse, but I strongly believe that the preservation of our "current" way of life may not be the best thing for the overall survival of the species. Or any species for that matter. There is no way of knowing what the long term future holds, and I think the best thing we can do to ensure survival is to behave responsibly and decently in society and make the best contributions we can. Stockpiling our wealth, talent and resources in private hordes goes against the idea of promoting the overall survival of civilization and humanity. For that, we really need to invest those things into our society. We shouldn't build Towers of Babel to secure our individual selves from doom, but as great shelter for all of humanity with the idea in mind that to do so will make it much less likely that we will bring about this doom upon ourselves.

Ok, so at this point you're pretty sure I'm a commie, maybe so. I think that just like capitalism is something we haven't outgrown yet, communism is something we aren't wise enough to embrace properly. Before we can make an attempt at providing an "equal" society, we need to have the intellectual resources to fix those problems that cause the inequality in the first place. Again, I think it's a process, and we're just at the very beginning of where it's starting to get good. I'll keep my coffee, motorbike and internet thanks. I'll also gladly die when my time comes so that the glorious future of the human race isn't muddled by my antiquated ideas and opinions.

@-Calamari Kid - love that song/vid, must go get it!

Drift · Post by **Drift** » Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:40 pm

I'd have to figure out how to run my bike on grain alcohol that I distilled myself.

Horses don't like me. None of them. They can be the sweetest, kid-friendly nag ever and the moment I get within 3 ft, they react ...badly.

Horse peoples told me I must have "that smell" that don't jive. I'd have to give 'em that. It's possible I smell.

MagnusTheBuilder · Post by **MagnusTheBuilder** » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:13 pm

Here is a motivational poster that I made for my brother as a background for his computer. He wanted Joaquin Phoenix and the text. The first line is the only part that has anything to do with this thread. I thought it was cool so I am sharing it with you. Totally off topic so, sorry about that.

By the strange chance you want to know what it says:

If things went all medieval and you had to fight a fit guy like me over your girl, I’d ravage your ass and take her. You okay with that?

When your girl is out with friends, she’s checkin’ me out because I’ve worked to improve my appearance and it shows. You okay with that?

You think you’re safe out here in this world? You think it’s okay to be this unfit, lazy little monger? You know you’re not safe in your job, I’m sure. Every day you go above and beyond to make sure that the cutthroat guillotine of labor supply doesn’t mutilate you into an unrecognizable, unemployed piece of shit. Why do you think it’s different with your fitness?

How’d you get where you are? People look at you and laugh. People use you as a benchmark to change their own habits. You okay with that?

Let’s get it poppin’, kid. No relapses. It’s kill or be killed out here: it always has been. Sure, we changed the rules a little and added our own little trifling sense of justice and morality. But nothing’s really changed.

Don’t be one of these assholes making pathetic recurring attempts to change their lifestyle. Don’t whine about it. You’ve got self-discipline and nothing else in this life. You’ve got one try: to fail once is to fail every time. In six months, you’re either going to be a pathetic, guilt-ridden failure, or a fucking tribute to human will. Your bitch of a mother-in-law will make comments like, “I can’t believe it...” Your girl will get nervous about how much you can accomplish just by setting your mind to it and start asking you to tell her she’s good enough for you. Assholes who taunted you will have nothing... nothing... to say. You did something they either simply couldn't even begin, or tried to do and failed miserably.

And when my girl is out with her friends, she'll be checking you out, motherfucker. Let's do this.

Also... back to the point, horses are cool. They would be cooler if they had engines.

roadmissile · Post by **roadmissile** » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:34 pm

MagnusTheBuilder wrote:Also... back to the point, horses are cool. They would be cooler if they had engines.

???

/RM

Gahread · Post by **Gahread** » Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:37 pm

Beemer Dan wrote: I'll also gladly die when my time comes so that the glorious future of the human race isn't muddled by my antiquated ideas and opinions.

Screw that. I plan on living forever.

bndgkmf · Post by **bndgkmf** » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:40 pm

I've been reading The Pessimist's Guide To History and after reading about cholera outbreaks and bubonic plague I don't want to go back to then.

Metalredneck · Post by **Metalredneck** » Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:35 pm

Metalredneck wrote:I dislike horses, and we have had a few. The Dutchman in me says they make GREAT salami & summer sausage. Fuckin' hay-burners.

So, apparently I need to learn to shut up. On Saturday, we got my daughter a horse.
Twelve year-old gelding named Flyer. He's actually kinda nice. So guess who's riding rat-bikes for the foreseeable future?

Pics to follow. Shee-it.

rolly · Post by **rolly** » Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:40 pm

Metalredneck wrote:
Metalredneck wrote:I dislike horses, and we have had a few. The Dutchman in me says they make GREAT salami & summer sausage. Fuckin' hay-burners.
So, apparently I need to learn to shut up. On Saturday, we got my daughter a horse.
Twelve year-old gelding named Flyer. He's actually kinda nice. So guess who's riding rat-bikes for the foreseeable future?

Pics to follow. Shee-it.

Or, sandwiches for everyone.

Metalredneck · Post by **Metalredneck** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:15 am

Here's the new family member:
<a href="" title="IMG_0126 by redneckfri13, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5249/528 ... 35f33d.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="IMG_0126" /></a>
By the look on her face, I'm pretty much locked in.

sandor · Post by **sandor** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:36 pm

Rench wrote:BWAHAHAHAHA!!! I LOVE THE AMISH!!!

-Rench

and they love modernity. just not in their house.

they sit in mennonite-driven buses and vans through 60 miles of rush hour traffic everyday to sell their wares in center city philadelphia. they have their phones, electricity and bank accounts. they re-roof the slate roofs of old city philly for cash money, and they bring their babies to be treated with our chemo and state-of-the-art operating rooms - trading quilts for services.

while it is different, i find nothing terribly appealing about their life.
they are driven by restrictive religion, and i'm driven by science.
they can have their clothes lines and i'll keep the embryonic stem cells.

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Anarcho-Primitivism vs the UTMC

Would you trade your bike for a horse?

sorry