The firearm battle!!!

badi · Post by **badi** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:34 pm

This is what BDB wrote in the "Sin City" thread:

>> additionally, i understand the realm of probability widens when you are talking about a graphic novel. the problem is i fear other peoples fear. if the general public thinks a barrell obstruction can shoot the slide into your forehead and kill you, they are more likely to fear guns and less likely to be open minded about learning that that isnt a possibility. the less people know or want to know about guns, the worse it is for those who do. so i tend to take issue about things that openly defy physics to create the end result of heightened, unneccesary fear. (but thats for another thread) <<

Okay, here we go:
BDB, as I wrote already I know next to nothing about guns. So please excuse me thinking that they can be quite deadly weapons and therefor should not be available for human beings. Doesn't matter if a barrel obstruction can't kill you. A flawlessly working gun is even worse cause it doesn't kill the shooter but the victim! Fact is people die every day from gun-shot wounds. It's actually not the guns I'm afraid of but the people owning/using them. Experience says that every gun will be fired sooner or later, so there's an easy solution: No guns, no firing, no dead people! Cool huh?

Hanover Fist · Post by **Hanover Fist** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:59 pm

Touchy subject...
First off BDB - Fear is good. Fear is what keeps stupid people from being dead people. Maybe it's not a bad thing. Maybe thinking that will keep people safe. There's no excuse for a barrel obstruction. It is an avoidable circumstance and if thinking they might get a bolt to the face keeps them careful then so be it.

Experience says that every gun will be fired sooner or later, so there's an easy solution: No guns, no firing, no dead people! Cool huh?

Badi - Dude, are you stirring the pot? Getting rid of guns doesn't stop violence as I'm sure you know. I think history has shown that guns aren't the problem; people are. Let's take the genocide in Rwanda for example. Running out of bullets wasn't an issue because there happened to be a lot of machettes lying around. I was shot in a hold up, and while it wasn't fun, I think I'd take it again over being hacked up by a machette.
I just think that humans are inherently violent. I don't know what it'll take to get away from this. Maybe education, time to escape our past, or complete annihilation...who knows if it is even possible? I'd like to think so, but I seem to grow more doubtful as time goes on. I don't really think taking guns out of peoples hands will ever stop violence. Maybe it's just the opposite. My brother in law is from Norway and every person serves in the military and every person has a gun. Virtually no crime.
I don't have any answers...just opinions.

Post by **DerGolgo** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:44 pm

Hanover Fist wrote:My brother in law is from Norway and every person serves in the military and every person has a gun. Virtually no crime.

But therein lies a fundamental difference: All the people with the guns in Norway, just as in Switzerland (every Swiss man between 18 and 50 or so is in the army reserve and has to keep an assault rifle and a sealed box of ammo at home for constant readiness), or most of them, were trained for use of their weapons in the military. Plus, if the people on this board are any representation of the general populace of the USA, then many people in the US apparently feel the need to own and/or carry a gun for protection against crime - I'd be surprised to find many people feeling like that in Norway or Switzerland.
You are right, the guns are not the problem, but the people - but without the guns, the people would be less of a problem.
Also, while banning guns would certainly reduce gun related violence and, of course, deaths, criminals could still get their guns (as they do in Germany, with very restrictive gun laws or in Britain, with a total ban on handguns) so being held up with a machete is not necessarily made more likely. Also, hacking someone to death with a machete is somewhat more messy and difficult than shooting someone to death, does the average gas-station robber have the guts to do it??

Last but not least, banning guns wouldn't even be necessary - as Chris Rock said, "We don't need gun control, we need some bullet control!". A low-velocity rubber bullet will probably discourage any assailant, and at least distract him sufficiently to make a get-away or pump a few further rounds into him to disable him from further evil doing while at the same time it is very difficult to kill anyone with it.

xtian · Post by **xtian** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:49 pm

"kid cuts himself into pieces by accident with his father's machette"
hmmm

c'mon, guns are dangerous, ok.
ever though about bikes? ever tried lane splitting on a highway at 120Mph into traffic?.
alcool is baaaad. marijuana IS a drug. coffee makes you nervous.
the only difference between a baaad dangerous thing and a goood dangerous kick is the supposed brain into the cerebral cavity of the owner. which presence on this board shows - a priori- that he/she has one.
is that what you call "thread killing"?

Rabbit_Fighter · Post by **Rabbit_Fighter** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:02 pm

Guns are interesting. Next time someone starts talking about how awful guns are, give them the following definition: a gun is a machine that throws a metal ball very fast and straight.

Whenever I say that, I get reactions like "that's an oversimplification!" or "no way!". I've said this to people on many occassions, and I find it very amusing how consistently people resist this definition. I think that people get hung up on why the balls are to be thrown (i.e. to kill), and are unable to tihink of guns as machines, rather than broad social issues.

Personally, I really enjoy shooting cans. I don't hunt. I don't keep a gun for personal protection. I enjoy pieces of interesting machinery, especially ones that make loud noises.

Motor vehicles kill way more people. Give a killer a loaded revolver, 6 people may die. Give him a car with a full tank of gas; he could kill all day.

Bo_9 · Post by **Bo_9** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:52 am

While I understand other peoples views and would never force them to buy a gun, I feel obligated to throw in my two pennies.
Whenever a child is killed or injured in an accident involving a firearm it is a tragedy, but it is not the fault of the machine. The blame lies in the lack of responsibility shown by the owner of the firearm, often a parent. I grew up in a rural area and there were loaded rifles or a shotgun behind almost every front door of every house for miles around, guns were readily available and unlocked. Not one child was ever injured by any of these weapons nor was anyone ever the victim of an "accidental" discharge. This can only be attributed to responsibility. I have a toddler in my house so I take the responsibility of making sure there is no way that small hands can find their way to anything that can kill them this includes guns, this also includes electrical outlets and household chemicals. When my kids are older they will be drilled to the extreme in safely handling firearms simply so there is no "mystery" around them.

As RF pointed out a gun is a simple machine, most with interlocks that must be defeated before it will function. Anytime a bullet comes out there has been an obvious action to make that happen. Someone has pulled the trigger. Whoever pulled the trigger must take responsibility for what the bullet does. If the trigger is pulled by a child, the owner of the gun has failed on their part and should be held accountable.

Okay I'm done.
BTW- Every State that has concealed carry has had a steady decline in violent crime since it was enacted.

http://www.gunowners.org/sk0802.htm

Gauss · Post by **Gauss** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:45 am

I just wish people would beat each other's brains out with baseball bats, if only for the backlash...baseball has been a scourge to this great nation, inspiring children to eat foot long hotdogs and keep track of meaningless statistics...energies that could be better spent serving the high overlord by bringing him pretty things...

Guns guns guns...ideally there should be self control, and personal responsibility....but living in an age where people have been found so incompetent as to not know how to deal with the dangers of a bottle of Dr Pepper without a warning label telling them to not point it at people "especially while opening", gives me little hope that accidental gun deaths will ever go away......even less hope that grown adults will be able to outwit the evil genious of a 12 year old....not while NASCAR continues to roam this land unchecked anyway....I mean Jumpin Jebus on a pogo-stick, it is possible to turn a car right...

Anyway, to the general Gun Owning Population: Keep your guns safe, out of reach of those too young or stupid to handle the responsibilty (this may include yourself) or who may use them to wipe out the patrons at the local Bobs Big Boy....just stop fucking it up for the rest of us, eh?

Remember kids "Baseball Bats, not just for Baby Seals Anymore"

nate · Post by **nate** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:11 am

A flawlessly working gun is even worse cause it doesn't kill the shooter but the victim!

Why is the person on the wrong end of the gun automaticly the victim

No guns, no firing, no dead people! Cool huh?

Using the same logic we should also ban smoking, drinking, swiming, driving, and all sorts of other activities that might get someone killed.

The thing about keeping a firearm handy for self defense is that you have in your possesion a tool capable of ending a life.
That is NOT something that is to be taken lightly. In a self defense situation drawing your gun is the LAST OPTION. And if youre not prepared to fire it?? you should not have drawn it.

If you are not in fear for your life you have no justification for pointing a weapon at someone.

If you are in fear for your life?? I belive that you have every right to
make that threat go away. And that means shooting until the bad guy isn't breathing anymore...

I do not have a concealed weapons permit. I decided after taking the class, and doing some research, that it was a responsability that I really didn't want. (and I really don't need a gun for self defense)

But I still have a safe full of rifles and handguns that I use regularly for hunting, Taget shooting, and informal competition. Nobody has, as of yet, been killed by one of my firearms. Unless you want to get all bleedin' heart and count the tasty critters and the filthy vermin. But that is a whole other debate.

Ban Guzzi · Post by **Ban Guzzi** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:50 am

nice bit of trolling there badi...
your arguments are simplistic and childish. Getting rid of guns doesn't make you or anyone safer. If someone intends to kill you, a sharp knike or blunt object will do in a pinch.

Human beings are made for warfare. Period. We fight these tendenies by being nice to one another daily and that is a good thing. Dont give me any new age hippy shit about being nice to your neighbor for the greater good. It is only because resources (food,water) are available do we even give a shit about our neighbors. The Greater Good quickly disappears when it comes down to Us/Them situations. A pointy stick will do fine at that point.

Don't like guns? Don't own one...

Muppet · Post by **Muppet** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:28 am

my rambling two cents.

I put guns up there with kids, cars, motorcycles, sex, and a variety of other things.

If you want one - LEARN HOW TO RAISE/DRIVE/TAKE CARE OF/USE/RESPECT IT.

You can take all the statistics in the world and make them say what you want them to (that's the fun thing about statistics!).
What I do think we U.S. chitlins as a general blanket statement are missing is a respect & responsibility for life (amongst a whole frickin' plethora of other things...but trying to stay on topic here).

Almost anything can be used as a weapon/deadly force if the person responsible is an asshat.

xoxo

Slash 6 · Post by **Slash 6** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:57 am

I have guns, I even have a concealed weapons permit. In the two years I have had that permit I think I have carried a concealed weapon a total of 5 times... usually when @ 2 am I decided to walk down to 7-11 on colfax in order to pick up a pack of cigarettes. One of the rules about carying a gun concealed or otherwise (not in a law enforcement capacity) is that if you have to draw your weapon even as a show of force you have already lost... use your brain, use your mouth and watch your step. If you think the gun makes you safer then you may just have that backwards.

The thing is I have have been trained to use and respect firearms. I have never hunted in my life unless you call hitting a deer with a car hunting... I just call it painfull.

All this aside I have mixed emotions about guns and gun ownership... I don't really like the idea of every schmuck out there having a gun and I really don't like the idea of my government telling me I can't have one.

Were I a time traveler I would solve this little problem by un-inventing the fire arm but since thats not an option I think I will just be carefull with mine and secure in the fact that if I need to use it some day I will be faster and aim truer than the fucker I am forced to face off with.

Gumby · Post by **Gumby** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:58 am

Slash wrote {I have never hunted in my life unless you call hitting a deer with a car hunting... I just call it painfull. }

TOO FUNNY !!!!

badi · Post by **badi** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:28 pm

Ban Guzzi wrote: your arguments are simplistic and childish.

That was my intention. Every simple-minded child knows that people are too bad to be allowed to have guns.

Ban Guzzi wrote:Getting rid of guns doesn't make you or anyone safer. If someone intends to kill you, a sharp knike or blunt object will do in a pinch.

Wrong! It takes much bigger cojones to face me without a gun. A sharp knife or blunt object will not kill me from a distance. And me not having a gun is making the lifes of the people around me sooo much safer! That's why I don't own one.

Ban Guzzi wrote: Human beings are made for warfare. Period.

Agreed! But warfare is a different ballgame from private gun ownership.

Ban Guzzi wrote:We fight these tendenies by being nice to one another daily and that is a good thing. Dont give me any new age hippy shit about being nice to your neighbor for the greater good.

So, your holy bible, the koran and 5000 years old buddhist and hindu scripts are "new age hippy shit"??? And what do you mean with fighting these tendencies? If you really feel the urge to kill people instead of living a cultivated life I suggest you drag your bum to the nearest shrink.

Ban Guzzi wrote: It is only because resources (food,water) are available do we even give a shit about our neighbors. The Greater Good quickly disappears when it comes down to Us/Them situations. A pointy stick will do fine at that point.

Now you're talking warfare again. Different thing completely. Also I'm game for a pointy stick fight anytime!

Ban Guzzi wrote:Don't like guns? Don't own one...

Hey, that's exactly what I do! I only wonder why there are some people who actually like guns. It's them I'm worried about cause they could shoot me dead. And I'm not too fond of dying. Following your logic I must go now and buy a gun as well. To protect myself! No, that's too stupid! I don't wanna do that so instead I'm trying to get rid of guns completely.

C'mon guys, we're talking about personal protection here. How often are you in a situation where somebody wants to shot you? I guess in most cases guns are used against burglars and muggers. Do these guys, annoying as they are, really have to be shot "until they don't breath anymore"? I don't think so. They're not a threat to my life! So my trusty counterfeit maglite or any other blunt object will have to do as weapon of choice.

And even if somebody really wants to shoot you down, that's because he has a gun! Sorry, but I have to say it again: No guns, no shooting, no danger, no dead people! I wonder why you can't acknowledge the simple fact that in countries where guns are banned from the public, we have much less deaths. It's like so totally simple and logical.

badi · Post by **badi** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:38 pm

Nate wrote:
A flawlessly working gun is even worse cause it doesn't kill the shooter but the victim!
Why is the person on the wrong end of the gun automaticly the victim

Doh! Maybe because it's him/her/it who ends up wounded or even dead. That's what I call a classic victim! Only exception is when he was aiming with his gun at me. But that brings me directly back to my idea of getting rid of guns altogether.

Nate wrote:
No guns, no firing, no dead people! Cool huh?
Using the same logic we should also ban smoking, drinking, swiming, driving, and all sorts of other activities that might get someone killed.

No, that's a different logic. In all the mentioned activities the someone who could get killed is mainly the guy himself. If I drown while swimming, or catch a deadly cancer from smoking it's my bad. Also all these activities (even driving) are not designed exclusively for killing. Guns are!

Hanover Fist · Post by **Hanover Fist** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:02 pm

Ban Guzzi wrote:

your arguments are simplistic and childish.

Badi wrote:
That was my intention. Every simple-minded child knows that people are too bad to be allowed to have guns.

Damn those childish 2nd amendment writers. Who let those simpletons create the Bill of Rights anyway?

Ban Guzzi wrote:
Getting rid of guns doesn't make you or anyone safer. If someone intends to kill you, a sharp knike or blunt object will do in a pinch.

Badi wrote:
Wrong! It takes much bigger cojones to face me without a gun. A sharp knife or blunt object will not kill me from a distance. And me not having a gun is making the lifes of the people around me sooo much safer! That's why I don't own one.

Badi wrote:
So, your holy bible, the koran and 5000 years old buddhist and hindu scripts are "new age hippy shit"??? And what do you mean with fighting these tendencies? If you really feel the urge to kill people instead of living a cultivated life I suggest you drag your bum to the nearest shrink.

Uh...Badi...WTF? It sounds like you are saying you don't own a gun because you would hurt people around you. Congratulations on being a responsible non-gun owner! The world needs more people like you!

I walked into my house in 1993 to a burglary in progress, guess what? I didn't shoot the guy. I grabbed a revolver and he peacefully left the premises. No problem. I was within my rights in this country to take his life, but I didn't.

I was out with three friends in 1998 and was shot in the head in a hold up by some cracked out little gang banger. Would I have shot back if I was carrying a gun? Probably.

So I have been on both ends of the barrel, and you know what? I believe in the rights we have been granted in this country and I'm unwilling to let any of those rights go without a fight. I don't want the government to be the one with all the guns.

Responsibiltity is the key.

Ban Guzzi · Post by **Ban Guzzi** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:20 am

That was my intention. Every simple-minded child knows that people are too bad to be allowed to have guns.

Only those who use it as a first response.

Wrong! It takes much bigger cojones to face me without a gun. A sharp knife or blunt object will not kill me from a distance.

The same people who own guns, responsibly, WOULD use these choices first. You don't own a gun without knowing you might have to kill someone. To do otherwise is to deceive yourself...

Agreed! But warfare is a different ballgame from private gun ownership.

OK...One more time. Whether you or anyone here in this country agrees, we have the Second Amendment. We also have the resposibility as citizens to rise up should things get too bad to replace our leaders, by force if needed. The Civil War ring a bell? Alot of times being peaceful and thoughtful works and sometimes you just need to Kill/ Replace. Ideally you exhaust all other avenues first. See above about responsability.

So, your holy bible, the koran and 5000 years old buddhist and hindu scripts are "new age hippy shit"??? And what do you mean with fighting these tendencies? If you really feel the urge to kill people instead of living a cultivated life I suggest you drag your bum to the nearest shrink.

Look deeper bubba...These artifacts are what allow people to get thru life as good people and keep them striving far higher than they would by themselves. These books were written with the express purpose of growth. You know..."fighting these tendencies." And the arrogance to assume someone needs professional help because they disagree with you?! The sheer Arrogance...! Your still here on earth with the rest of us incomplete souls, so get your nose to the grindstone and quit pointing "holy than tho" fingers...the nerve of some children!

Now you're talking warfare again. Different thing completely. Also I'm game for a pointy stick fight anytime!

uhhmmm...not quite. It is called survival. And the fact you would be up for a game of "pointy stick" lets me know you might just be more dangerous than me. I haven't the slightest idea of what your idea of the US is, but it doesn't involve us all walking around packin' heat! THATS stupid! It is more difficult to buy, own and carry a weapon (gun ) here than it is to start breeding little kids. Hell, they let ANYone do it!! Even the ones who really shouldn't!!

Hey, that's exactly what I do! I only wonder why there are some people who actually like guns.

Its kinda like people who like choppers and people who can't stand the ill handling beasts...All a matter of taste...
Changing the laws to keep guns out of everyones hands leaves you at the mercy of bad government and bad people. People who have a need for illegal guns WILL ALWAYS have illegal guns. Yes that is a simplistic point for gun ownership but since were dealing with simplistic, biased arguments I might as well throw one out of my own...

It's them I'm worried about cause they could shoot me dead. And I'm not too fond of dying.

I dont think any healthy person is fond of dying. As to your fears of being shot dead? I'd more wary of the fellow with the pointy stick...

What galls me is the genralisations people outside the US make about guns, Jerry Springer and God in this country. Should you come for a visit, you probably would HAVE to watch out for the pointy stick guy and not worry that you'll even see a gun much less one pulled to defend you from StickBoy... You worry too much Bubba...

If you really feel the urge to kill people instead of living a cultivated life I suggest you drag your bum to the nearest shrink.

Is that not the point of cultivating a life? To get away from the baser instincts of Man? Nice try at an insult tho'. I see "cultivation of a life" is working well for you. You only tried to debase and riducule me a handful of times rather than dismiss and move on as a lesser man would have...

and really, this was a troll posting but a good subject to pick..

xtian · Post by **xtian** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:36 pm

BackDoorBarbie wrote: so why the argument? Fear (respect) and lack of understanding.

mmmhh. I wasn't starting fight. you're using my argument and come to the same conclusion I did.

my solution to prevent kids from blowing their body parts by accident is to get rid of kids.
kids are much more annoyance than weapons are.

plus, since you've got the gun and I don't... well I can only agree with you, can't I

Post by **DerGolgo** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:55 pm

BackDoorBarbie wrote:oh my god. I swear to if I have to talk to one more kung foo motherfucker I am going to fucking scream. I get so sick of these supposed “black belts” that tell me how much of a badass they are. If you have to say it out loud, you suck and I could probably kick your ass. Let me guess, you have some miracle plan on what to do if someone breaks into your home or attacks you that involves a specifically planned back flip and a wink at your opponent that if you mess up the timing on, you are dead? I hear this all of the time and I get so sick of listening to the dick measuring contests. So, more cojones, huh? Yeah, whatever.

Erm, I don't get this.......Badi just said that, when a person has a gun, that person doesn't need to worry as much about the outcome of a violent confrontation with another person than he would have to if he didn't had a gun. That is the whole point of owning a gun for protection, isn't it, or to go up against the government - the gun is a weapon that enables the user to inflict greater destruction upon others than he could without the gun.
Attacking somebody without a gun means relying on being such a damn badass motherfucker.....attacking someone with a gun means relying on the gun's capability to ruin the opponent's inside bits, and the opponent's awareness of that capability.
So, it stands to reason that even a person of lesser balls will choose to face an opponent violently if he has a gun that, with it's lethal capacity, gives him confidence to win the battle as it replaces abilites he does not have himself (ass-kicking wise).

Personally, I can understand why people are fascinated with guns - just a handfull of metal bits and some chemicals, but put the together and you have something that goes BOOM and puts holes in things. But I personally do not feel the need to own one, nor do I know anyone who feels unsafe for not owning a gun.
I don't even think guns are bad - I just think the things you can do with them are bad, and usualy unneccessary.

I also agree about the whole uneducated lawmakers banning things because they are scared and it's oportunistic argument, what that sort of thing leads to can be seen in every man or women imprisoned for posession of marijuana.
I am no fan of prohibitions, but when the purpose of an object, not the possible use but the sheer purpose (making a metal ball move very fast so that it can ruin somebody's shit) is as destructive and dangerous as that of a gun, there should be restrictions to who can own one, carry one, as well as a whole lot of background checks (like a psychiatric and medical evaluation) and firearm safety training. It's like that here in Germany, if you aren't a violent criminal, are sane and healthy enough, have a good reason to own a gun (armored car driver, bodyguard, hunter, sport shooter, collector) and a place to keep them, only a bit of red tape separates you from a firearm.
These regulations of course mean that, here in Germany, you cannot own any kind of assault weapon (because no one really needs that privately), and may only carry a loaded weapon publicly when you need to (bodyguard, hunter, etc.).
These regulations make sense, I like them as a compromise between freedom and social necessity, and that's my stance on guns, end of story, to pre-empt any misconceptions that might arise from the next statement I am going to make.

Many of you United Statesians seem to see it as vital to a democratic society that anyone can have a firearm, because apparently you need a lethal weapon to make a point and topple a government (which you don't). Furthermore, many of you seem to find a firearm to be a necessary means of protection against criminals. And you have about ten times or so as many gunshot deaths per million people as we do here in Germany, creating god knows what sort of economic damage, but refuse to limit the distribution or control of firearms and ammunition.
What I am getting at: I knew you guys flouridated your drinking water, it makes the teeth white and the mind docile, but since when are you adding testosterone and cocaine (cocaine, over time, reduces the users grasp of reality)??!! In other words, WTF are so many people in your fair country high on?? Because, you know, I don't get it. I really don't.
Congress shall make no law to limit the freedom of speech, but where is the righteously indignated lobby kicking down the doors of the FCC for their obscenity rules, after paying a visit to places like FOX News that censor their own journalists? All men are supposed to be created equal, so why do so many people in the US not have access to basic healthcare, and who is ripping the politicians "embedded" with the insurance companies a new one? Church and state are supposed to be separate, but why is that not taken as literal as the second ammendment when the ACLU want's the phrase "under god" to be taken out of the loyalty oath?
As I said, I don't get the rules according to which your society get's its panties in a bunch. Maybe it's the monopolisation of your media complex that produces a distorted picture which I see.
But guns aren't nearly as important to everyone's well being is healthcare or media diversity, yet from my point of view ya'all got some pretty messed up priorities over there.
Whatever. It's all capitalism's fault, start the flaming, I can take it.

Stick · Post by **Stick** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:27 pm

I like guns and hate war, but believe that war is necessary to create peace. I am not going to go explain why. I am sure what I have to say will not change anyone's mind. It is simply a topic that, in the past, seems to have someone riding one side of the fence or the other. Seems that if someone has a belief on the issue, they will stick by it. Whether it be because they have tangeable historical documentation, or a logical or religious explanation, or a story to tell on why they think it is good or bad.

But if they have a position, they seem to not want to budge from it because they know they are right, are stubborn and unnaccepting of others opinions or ideas, or unwilling to listen to something that may prove them wrong.

I am at least 2/3 of the above. It has gotten me into many shouting matches which have ended in leaving pissed off, losing a potential friend, or thinking the other is stupid. For those reasons, I have personally given up discussing the issue of firearms and why people should or should not have them.

At some point in time someone may have to agree to disagree in order to end the pissing match.

But then again, I really enjoy watching others discuss it

red · Post by **red** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:10 pm

all this boils down to common sense. You can kill anyone with almost anything. People who want to own a firearm should be required to take safety courses, background check (criminal and mental health) and last but definitly not least, a common sense test!
I have nothing against guns, unless they're in untrained or illegal hands. I've owned a few pistols and an AK-47. I rarely carried unless the circumstances demanded it. The Ak was for fun at the range. Does your average citizen need a 7.62x39 assault rifle? Nope. Did I "need" it, nope. But I could legally own it, so I bought one. In my state, we've had multiple police officers killed by assault rifles in the last 2 years. The people who shot them were mentally ill and had no right owning a firearm of any kind. The police should not be out gunned by a schizo.
Banning guns would not stop violent crimes with guns. If someone wants a gun, regardless of the law, they can get one. A few years ago, I could have got you a whole plethora of weapons that were outlawed. Drugs are illegal and you can still buy crack, meth and any other flavor of the rainbow. Illegal firearms will never go away unless they all magically disappear. You can make a gun with basic machine shop equipment.

MouSe · Post by **MouSe** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:52 pm

I always thought that if you want to own a gun, go for it, if you have objections to gun ownership, don't own one.

That is the beauty of this country. One of my friends sleeps with a louisville slugger, painted red with butterfiles all over it. I have a really loud dog, who while completely harmless, sounds the alert when the meter man comes into the backyard (whom he promptly runs outside ot play with.)

Of course I also own guns.

I have been carrying a concelaed handgun for most of my adult life, I spent 4 years in the Coast Guard working drug intertiction, and I have never pointed a gun at another human being, I have never even unholstered or showed a gun (in a menacing fashion) at another human being. And I hope never to have to. A gun is a last resort, run, talk, distance, avoidence there are lots of ways to stay out of situations that could escalate to gun violence.

eg. My black ass does not go to Neo Nazi rallies.

eg. I do not get drunk and wanader around the less friendly neighborhoods (Highlands Ranch)

Every gun owner should have a little common sense, saftey and markmanship training, and a healthy understanding of the fact that the last thing you ever want to do is kill another human being.

And while I seriously question the responsiblity of breeders, well like guns it is a choice (usually) and since I have two little inquisitive, curious and utterly naive neighbor kids, guns stay locked in the safe at all times.

$.02

RandallReigns · Post by **RandallReigns** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:27 pm

Always the complicated issue.

Historical precedence leads me to the conclusion that education and weaponry are the only insurance against tyrany and slavery. Japanese peasants and farmers weren't allowed same weapons as the Samurai so they found a way to use their tools as weapons for self defense. Check every Fascist government that has ever been, every one of them has limited the ability of the populace to defend itself. Afghanistan today has issues depite U.S. efforts, mainly in that warlords looking for profit margins can essentially tell the locals that they will be part of a heroine crop or we will kill you. In all of these situations the only way to stay alive was, and is, to keep their head down or cooperate with something they don't agree with. Now Education can keep a people from getting to that point, and Guns can get you out once things have gone too far. Guns are not the only means but they are one of the most effective tools when the situation becomes dire.

If we could wipe out the exsistance of firearms I would be all for it, and only if that includes government use. I am not a militia type but I also don't see how leaving the responsibility for my family's protection in the hands those imbiciles helps anyone. I don't trust those Asshats with my Taxes, why would I trust them with my life?

My last point, for now, is a cultural one. The U.S. is not like most of the world and has not developed the same culture or even close to it. The Only country IMHO that comes close to the same cultural issues that we have is Australia. When the Aussies started their gun control measures a few years ago violent crime shot to record highs. Why? Criminals knew that normal people no longer had guns.

The only way that guns/firearms are going away is if (or when) humanity evolves past their need, it can't happen conversely.

I could keep going on but I think my basic points have been met.

algiers · Post by **algiers** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:43 pm

RandallReigns wrote: The only way that guns/firearms are going away is if (or when) humanity evolves past their need, it can't happen conversely.

I believe this conversation is over. Well put.

A comment:

Although this is buggery I don't think any of the arguments above were convincing anyone of anything. This problem has philosophical roots and I think Mr. Reigns hit it right on the head. You cannot undo something that is already done, and laws are for the simple minded.

Humans have a long way to go yet, and we are obviously going to have problems as we struggle to let go of our animalistic side and head towards our goal of real civilization. The horrible things going on in the world are simply evidence that we are not there yet. Still there is hope. Stay alive and do your part.

badi · Post by **badi** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:51 am

Since I'm not in the mood for much copy and paste right now, I'm just refering losely to some of your posts and ask a few questions:

- What is the second amendment?
- BDB, like DerGolgo wrote I didn't want to demonstrate my mighty kung-foo powers (which I don't possess) but just make it clear that it is much easier to shot me dead from a distance than to have a show-off face to face.
- I didn't write people with guns are bad. I just said people are bad and therefor shouldn't get guns in their hands.
- I don't get the whole fear-issue. Fear is not a good thing, NEVER! Call it respect and I can agree. Fear makes people do stupid things. Most drowning incidents happen because people are to afraid to swim. Fear makes your country pay for the biggest miltary machinery in the whole world. And it's fear that, just lately, made you invade another sovereign state for no good reason.
- I don't feel it's neccessary to get educated about guns. Even less to be forced to learn about them. What nerve must a gov'ment have to force its citizens to get educated in the use of possibly deadly weapons? Anyway, it's no rocket science. I could figure out for myself in less than 2 minutes how to load and fire a handgun. But even without proper education I know that guns are capable of blowing big holes in human flesh and stick bullets into their inner organs. I assume this is somehow dangerous, right?
- I forgot who wrote it but I understand you have the right to shoot at burglars? Just how fucked up is that, please?
- Even if you manage to drive the intruder out of your house without shooting him, you have the right to threaten him with a gun? That's bad! I always managed to drive people out by just turning the lights on.
- And true, it might sound a bit arrogant but I really never ever felt aggravated enough to kill somebody. I was angry enough to get involved into rumbles and I also fight dirty. I bite, I scratch, I kick, I go for knee caps, shins, eyes and private parts but I'd never use a weapon. And as for now I've always stopped immediately once my opponent was on the ground. It's not fair to kick people that are down, that's what I learned from my father. So far I stick to that rule.
- I agree, a gun can end any given situation or argument very quickly. But how do you know that you where right? No no, a gun is just too much power, a power nobody should possess!

Okay, I can't refuse copying this little gem:

Alot of times being peaceful and thoughtful works and sometimes you just need to Kill/ Replace. Ideally you exhaust all other avenues first.

Let's see if I got that right, sometimes you NEED TO kill/replace? Because exactly why? Because you think you're in the right? Guess what, the guys you killed/replaced thought the same! So, please be honest here, basically you kill to get your way!!! Not a good argument pro guns, haha!

And the arrogance to assume someone needs professional help because they disagree with you?! The sheer Arrogance...!

Sorry

But I didn't suggest professional help because you disagree. Only because you seemingly feel the urge to give in to your basic instincts and think that's a good excuse for killing.

What galls me is the genralisations people outside the US make about guns, Jerry Springer and God in this country. Should you come for a visit, you probably would HAVE to watch out for the pointy stick guy and not worry that you'll even see a gun much less one pulled to defend you from StickBoy... You worry too much Bubba...

Is it possible to make generalisations about guns? Their just machinery tools, as I said I'm more worried about people owning carrying them. What about Jerry Springer? I only know he's having a show on TV that I just can't watch for 5 minutes before my brain explodes. And god? I didn't spend more than 3 minutes of my whole life thinking about that theory before I dismissed it as unrealistic.
Anyway, I was visiting the USA twice already and apart from some police haven't met anyone with a gun. Not that I noticed. And why should I watch out for the pointy stick guy? Since he can't kill me from a distance I'll notice him soon enough should he approach me. That'll leave me with enough time to get out my gun and blast his head off!

But why should I?

Uh, have to go, Mrs Badi is calling for dinner .......

Rabbit_Fighter · Post by **Rabbit_Fighter** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:05 pm

Badi -

The first 10 ammendments of the constitution are known as the Bill of Rights. They were drafted by God himself and presented to America on tablets of gold. Okay, maybe God didn't write them (see ammendment #1), but in the eyes of most Americans, they may as well have been. In American politics, you just don't fuck with the Bill of Rights. They are holy and sacred and shall never change. It is kind beautiful and kind of fucked up. But just because you can't fuck with the first 10 ammendments, doesn't mean you can't argue over their interpretation.

The second ammendment reads as follows: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Now most of the pro-gun people here (represented mathmatically as ProGun=UTMC-badi) are likely to read this as meaning "this means the government cannot infringe upon my right to keep and bear arms."

Others might argue that the first sentence about "a well-regulated militia" means that the second ammendment means we should always have a military.

Some others will say "the forefathers never intended . . . . " which is kind of silly considering how much guns, this country, and the world in general have changed. Reading the minds of people 200 years dead is kind of a challenge.

While I don't agree with everyone here; I don't think we are dealing with a bunch of homicidal lunatics. I think the intrusion of a home is a very sacred and serious thing; given that home owners rarely have the time to interview the intruder to determine whether or not they are just looking for stereos, or interested in beating residents to death (it happens often enough), people have a right to protect themselves and their families. That said, even in America, you cannot shoot a burglar in the back as he runs out the door. While you may not agree with it Badi, it is probably not as fucked up as you might think.

Guns are a conflicted thing for me. I am a bit of a civil libertarian and so I like being able to own things that go boom. Just the same, I do think that the government has a right to at least keep track of who owns what (like they do with all kinds of other things people have a right to). I don't know. There are plenty of people out there who I really don't think should be allowed to buy guns or have concealed weapons permits (like the alchoholic guy who gets violent regularly and was still given a permit after 2 assault convictions).

If you don't agree with me, you are in need of professional help, are into hippy dippy bullshit, are stupid, arrogant, or something else.

Please be reminded that I do not use emoticons. I'm a bit suprised how emotional people get on this subject.

xtian can't log in · Post by **xtian can't log in** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:21 pm

am i the only one here to think that this second amendment was writen 2 centuries ago mostly to allow indian and bull hunting and not home security against burglar ?

mtne · Post by **mtne** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 1:10 pm

xtian can't log in wrote:am i the only one here to think that this second amendment was writen 2 centuries ago mostly to allow indian and bull hunting and not home security against burglar ?

Ummm, yes.

badi · Post by **badi** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:09 pm

Thanks for the very elaborate explainification, Rabbit. The only thing I still don't get is this: You are allowed to shot burglars but self-justice nevertheless is illegal, innit? Isn't the gov'ment (represented by its agencies like police and such) supposed to be the only law-enforcing power in like EVERY country? Heck, usually you as a private person are not even allowed to arrest or hold somebody but killing isn't that much of a problem?!?

I'm just thinking maybe I should get shot myself. That would prove my point and make me the winner in this discussion!

Rabbit_Fighter · Post by **Rabbit_Fighter** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:30 pm

badi wrote:Thanks for the very elaborate explainification, Rabbit. The only thing I still don't get is this: You are allowed to shot burglars but self-justice nevertheless is illegal, innit? Isn't the gov'ment (represented by its agencies like police and such) supposed to be the only law-enforcing power in like EVERY country? Heck, usually you as a private person are not even allowed to arrest or hold somebody but killing isn't that much of a problem?!?

I'm just thinking maybe I should get shot myself. That would prove my point and make me the winner in this discussion!

Getting shot would result in death or injury and probably not prove a point.

And shooting a burglar in your home has nothing to do with law enforcement or "self-justice". . . . it is self defense. Whether using a gun, knife, pan, sling-shot, pointy sticks or any other weapon or implement at your disposal, it is legal in just about every country to lay the smack-down on someone who breaks into your house.

This is especially true in your current country of residence where you can legally buy flame throwers to torch would-be car-jackers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/232777.stm

And Xtian . . . I don't think that hunting is what the drafters of the second ammendment had in mind, but you are not alone in reflecting on the fact that the world has changed significantly in 200 years.

RandallReigns · Post by **RandallReigns** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:44 pm

Badi-
If you did get shot that would only lead to a discussion as to what happened to get you shot.

The police are there only after something goes wrong not while it is happening. If someone breaks in to do who knows what and violate your rights he/she by that action gives up there own, and the consequences of violating someone elses rights lay on them.

By the rational that you seem to be operating if someone was to assault me I shouldn't fight back because I would be just as culpable and would then be guilty of assault. I am sorry but I like Ghandi but sometimes it is just unreasonable. For instance if I were to stop said victimizer from doing what they want, (by injuring, death, or preferably keeping him/her there til the "authorities" arrive) I have not just saved myself but the other people they would have made victims before finally being caught.

Not trying to piss you off or anything but your argument is becoming irrational. Also your seeming refusal to learn about guns is leading you to an ill informed conclusion and begins to seem like a knee-jerk reaction, similar to religious outrage.

We live in a very real world and if you can tell me how to get rid of ALL firearms I will be right there with you. Give a functional solution and stop screaming guns suck until you can come up with a solution to stop their need.

I anxiously await your response.

Login

The firearm battle!!!

The firearm battle!!!