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Burqini -- not "martini"

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Jaeger
Baron von Scrapple
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Burqini -- not "martini"

Post by Jaeger » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:31 pm

Rock just sent this to me and asked me to stir the shit, so I'm happy to oblige. My comment to him was:

"I mean, com'on -- it's political passive aggression like I've never seen. Christ, if you're going to be anti-Muslim, have the stones to be anti muslim!"


Image


French pool bars Muslim woman for 'burquini' suit

By MARIA DANILOVA, Associated Press Writer Maria Danilova, Associated Press Writer

PARIS – A Muslim woman garbed in a head-to-toe swimsuit — dubbed a "burquini" — may have opened a new chapter in France's tussle between religious practices and its stern secular code.

Officials insisted Wednesday they banned the woman's use of the Islam-friendly suit at a local pool because of France's pool hygiene standards — not out of hostility to overtly Muslim garb.

Under the policy, swimmers are not allowed in pools with baggy clothing, including surfer-style shorts. Only figure-hugging suits are permitted.

Nonetheless the woman, a 35-year-old convert to Islam identified only as Carole, complained of religious discrimination after trying to go swimming in a "burquini," a full-body swimsuit, in the town of Emerainville, southeast of Paris.

She was quoted as telling the daily Le Parisien newspaper that she had bought the burquini after deciding "it would allow me the pleasure of bathing without showing too much of myself, as Islam recommends."

"For me this is nothing but segregation," she said.

The issue of religious attire is a hot topic in France, where head-to-toe burqas or other full-body coverings worn by some Muslim fundamentalists are in official disfavor.

France is home to western Europe's largest Muslim population, estimated at 5 million, and Islam is the nation's second religion after Roman Catholicism.

A 2004 law banning the wearing of Muslim head scarves at public schools sparked fierce debate. That legislation also banned Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses in public classrooms.

French lawmakers recently revived the issue of Muslim dress with a proposal that the burqa and other voluminous Muslim attire be banned.

President Nicolas Sarkozy, a conservative, backs the move, saying such garb makes women prisoners.

The "burquini" covers the arms to the wrists and the legs to the ankle and has a hood to cover neck and hair.

An official in charge of swimming pools for the Emerainville region, Daniel Guillaume, said the refusal to allow the local woman to swim in her "burquini" had nothing to do with religion and everything to do with public health standards.

"These clothes are used in public, so they can contain molecules, viruses, et cetera, which will go in the water and could be transmitted to other bathers," Guillaume said in a telephone interview.

"We reminded this woman that one should not bathe all dressed, just as we would tell someone who is a nudist not to bathe all naked," he said.

Guillaume said France's public health standards require all pool-goers to don swimsuits for women and tight, swimming briefs for men — and caps to cover their hair. Bathers also must shower before entering the water.

Guillaume said Carole had tried to file a complaint at a local police station, but her request was turned down as groundless.

Carole told the daily Le Parisien she would protest with the help of anti-discrimination groups.

Emerainville Mayor Alan Kelyor said he could not understand why the woman would want to swim in head-to-toe clothes.

"We are going back in civilization," he said by telephone. Women have fought for decades for equal rights with men, he said. "Now we are putting them back in burqas and veils."

The suits have a clear market.

Women "jump on the occasion so they can swim with their families. Otherwise, they end up staying on the beach and watching," said Leila Mouhoubia, who runs an online site from France that specializes in the sale of Islamic swimsuits. Sales, she said, are strong.

"I think it's forbidden (in France) because it presents an image of the Muslim woman (and) they have prejudices against Muslims," she said by telephone. "They want women to be undressed."

Mouloud Aounit, head of the anti-racism group known as MRAP, said the decision to ban Carole from the pool appeared fair, since pool authorities were observing regulations. But Aounit lamented that the incident was likely to fuel religious tensions.

"The rules must be the same for everybody, regardless of the color of their skin or their religion," Aounit said. "The concern I have is that this case will again lead to stigmatization of the Muslim population in France."

The all-body suits, worn regularly by some women in Muslim countries, are growing popular in the West. They can be seen on female Muslim lifeguards on Australian beaches, in the United States and various European countries, from the Netherlands to Sweden — which OKed them after two women won discrimination cases last year.


-----


This whole thing baffles me on several levels:

1) For a country that has a huge Muslim population, the French are doing a bang-up job of trying to piss them off. Why the fuck would you pick on something so... PETTY? Gosh, no wonder there are virtually non-stop riots in portions of France...

2) What's the big deal? So they (Muslim women) are making their lives more difficult? That's their business and problem. This nonsense about "germs on the clothing" sounds like pure, unadulterated bullshit. Why pick this fight? (Other than a serious anti-Muslim bent?)

3) What is this bullshit about trying to "save" women from a religion that they have voluntarily accepted? If they wanna wear a burka, why bother them? Forcing them not to sounds an awful lot like forcing them to wear it...

4) WTF? 'Cause seeing fat French (or German, etc) folks in Speedo banana slings is less "offensive" or "more hygenic" than this?

I guess it's the hypocracy that bugs the fuck out of me.

Oh well. Not my problem. Let the French sort out their domestic maelstrom by throwing more fuel on the fire...

--Jaeger


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Procrustes
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Post by Procrustes » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:37 pm

Image


Shows the same, follows the reasonable swimming regulations, designed for such a thing.

If she had tried it wearing a wetsuit, and they denied her, then I'd agree that it's unreasonable discrimination. Otherwise...
Hiya

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DerGolgo
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Location: Potato

Post by DerGolgo » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:13 pm

So, what's the big deal?
If there is a valid hygienic reason for this, couldn't burqinis be made so they can be sterilized like surgeon's scrubs? You know, the lady walks in, shows the attendant the hermetically sealed plastic bag and breaks it out there and then. Heck, they could rent them out there and then and boost their income.

If they actually prohibit ALL non-figure-huggin swimwear (which is stupid, what about swimming trunks?), and can prove valid reasons for it (chlorine shortage, perhaps?), then sorry, she gotta find another swimsuit. Or they'll have to have Muslim-women-only days where the attire won't matter.
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Jaeger
Baron von Scrapple
Location: NoVA
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Post by Jaeger » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:28 pm

"First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up, because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me."
--Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)

And what the fuck ever happened to:

"I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
--Evelyn Beatrice Hall (writing under the pseudonym of Stephen G Tallentyre), "The Friends of Voltaire" (1906) ????

As I said in the "other thread": Hatred and bigotry are hatred and bigotry, no matter what government agency, well-meaning "ism" movement, preacher, teacher, or quack says.

Interesting book about the structure and fabric of society called "The Disuniting of America," by Arthur Schlesinger. I've suggested it to a few folks here, and would encourage anybody -- especially the French gubmint -- to give it a read. Then again, perhaps this is a ham-handed attempt by the Froggies to try to get the Muslims to conform...?

*shrug*

Boggle, mind. Boggle.

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
<<NON ERRO>>
2018 Indian Scout -- "Lilah"

Rabbit_Fighter
Keeper of the Lava
Location: Seattle (Wedgwood)

Post by Rabbit_Fighter » Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:41 pm

It is sad and fucked up.

On the one hand, you anti-Islamic bullshit like this that is just going to galvanize militancy. On the other hand, you have other parts of Europe where just criticizing Islam becomes criminal.

goose
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Location: Foggy Peninsula West of Oakland and South of Marin

Post by goose » Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:52 pm

A very stirring story. However, I was shaken by the statements of the French. Apparently, she is going to continue wearing a very dry Burkini.
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Rench
the Harm in Harmony
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Post by Rench » Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:03 pm

just going to galvanize militancy
I agree whole-heartedly, and follow with an indignant "and WE'RE the assholes?!?!?!?!"

I get it foreign policy and all that, but at least if you're here, you're free to do what you want. I can't imagine the shitstorm this would cause worldwide if this pool was in a Southeast suburb of Chicago rather than Paris...

-Rench
"I'm not a schemer..."

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12ci
Ayatollah of Mayhem
Location: Rive Gauche Anacostia

Post by 12ci » Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:49 pm

OK, so they can ban all the "skullcaps" they want

Image

but they better keep their hands off my borsalino

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today you decide what tomorrow will bring

Caliann
Slutty Feminazi
Location: Bryan/C-Stat Kinda
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Post by Caliann » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:29 pm

Ummm, what did the guy mean by "These clothes are used in public"? It is a PUBLIC swimming pool, right?

Or is it the assumption that an Islamic woman, wearing loose, head-to-toe swimsuit, doesn't change into that from her head-to-toe burqa?

After all, she would have had to come in, and by regulation, undress and shower, and then dress for the pool....

The Muslim women I know, who would wear a burquini at a pool, would not be caught dead in less that 6 yards of fabric on a street.

And even if she did walk in wearing the same thing, germs from walking down the street? And these would be far MORE germs than might be found in the shower, in the lockers, on the pool-side chairs? More than all of the skin cells that the rest of the swimmers are shedding all over the place? More fungi and viruses than on all the feet? More health hazards than in the urine from the kids?

Ummm...yeah...right...

Let the woman wear what she pleases. If she wants to be ultra modest, she should be allowed to do so.

*chuckles* And its the conservatives that are complaining? I wonder if it is the same people that, 40 years ago, were complaining that bikinis would kill morals...and that 20 years ago, swore that thongs were the end of society as we know it?
"There is a time and a place for ruthlessness. You and I and many others on this board were trained by the government to kill, maim and terrorize people and destroy their property. However, we must always keep in mind that the only appropriate time to do so is when it will benefit multi-national corporations."--Yogi Kuddha

EIF
Magnum Jihad
Location: in-transit

Post by EIF » Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:04 pm

Wear your burqa from the street into the ladies locker room with your burquini in your gym bag, wear your burquini out to the pool. Simple. However, I'd have the women wearing them sign a waiver that if they drown as a result of the flappy wet fabric inhibiting their ability to swim, their next of kin can't sue. Of course, given the treatment women often receive Islamic fundamentalist communities, her male relatives probably wouldn't go through the effort.
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xtian
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Post by xtian » Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:35 pm

i'm sorry but I will bring a nother bell sound here, as a "local".

first on the hygiene matter, just imagine this: you are in paris (not a very clean and pure atmosphere for those who never visited), decide to go to the swimming pool, take your swimsuit with you, change in a locker, take a shower before you go in the water, then by the window you see that guy wearing a city suits, entering the pool and into the water without changing any of his clothing... chances are you'd go "EWWWWWWWWWW" (well, you would if you were a parisian)

then on the equal rules for eveyone: I've been ask to leave a swimming pool because my swimsuit was too lose (more like swimming shorts) and they only accept thights. ok, a rule is a rule, why should that lady be allowed to go swimming with a fookin' overall ?! religion? seriously . I swim with my clothe on because god told me to. hmm. ok.

on the respect of the religion and tradition: she's a french converted to islam. what hit her head so hard that all in a sudden she canno't bare the sight of her body when she probably grew up in france for 35 years. who do you think is having a unreasonnable attitude here? how about not going swimming if the sight of undressed bodies is so armfull?

I am on of the most respectfull person around when it comes to immigrants, I love to have tea with them and defend their rights and opinion often more than I should, in the 50's we sent trucks to pick men in northen africa, made them live in boxes and work all the dirty work for less money, never gave them a chance to have a proper education, home or job, and when they complained, we said "go back to your place, nobody asked you to come" or "you can"t understand, you're not from around here" and now they're french or belgian and we tell them "maybe but you're still and arab, or a muslim" but there is a serious paranoïa going and nothing can be evaluated with common sense when it comes to muslims. everything is a reason to burn a few cars or a molotov here and there. Everything is a reason to take revenge on the conservative system. and I can't see a common future with revenge ideas.
I'm all for letting students wear veils in school as long as any other kid as the right to wear a cross around his neck, but we didn"t resist christian oppression to let any fancy new rule accepted with the excuse that resisting to the superiority of religious precept on civil laws would be discriminatory or is too risky and could rise a popular riot in some neigborhoods.

discrimination?
girls enters public pool with dress on, public pool rule says you must wear swimsuit, girl asked to leave. what discimination?

i'm sure there are muslim bath in paris where she can bathe with women, because correct me if I'm wrong, religion probably also says that men and women shouldn't bath together.

respect? what's so respectfull in teaching that women should be ashamed of their body or that women are so evil one could not bare the sight of her abominable legs and arms?

you have to seriously consider who's the most conservative, between the pool direction and some middle-aged religious fanatic.
protecting the right to wear a burquini is like protecting the right of black families down south to live in cabins and chain themselves together in the name of freedom.
people promoting these attitude are the same that block access to education to girls and arrange mariage when they're 12. you can't just pick what's in your interest in a backward oppression, like "oh, I'll take the burquini but I'll leave the submission to male and polygamy".

this and sarkozy can go f*ck himself with a french baguette.
I'm not really from around here.

12ci
Ayatollah of Mayhem
Location: Rive Gauche Anacostia

Post by 12ci » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:25 am

DerGolgo wrote: If they actually prohibit ALL non-figure-huggin swimwear (which is stupid, what about swimming trunks?
well, we are talking about france here....

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GOSTAZ
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Post by GOSTAZ » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:36 am

I thought, and I cannot back it up at this point, that the French were not friendly with the burkha because they believe that it is used a vehicle for the oppression of women.
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