Well, that's interesting.

[Sisyphus]

I have some ideas, but this is really, really strange:


Mutiny on board German sailing ship after female recruit plunges 100ft to her death
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1CHB3T0Pp

[DerGolgo]

If I may:

Well, first of all, wether it was actually a mutiny is presently a bit of a legal palaver.
The captain held a speech to the crew after the event which, basically, demonstrated that he had absolutely zero emotional investment in their safety and didn't care at all about their well founded fear. So, she died, now get back in there!
The other officers made it clear to cadets that anyone falling out of the rigging is, basically, themselves to blame, with all and sundry being "inferior human material".

Judging from what's in the news, the officers on that ship make Gunnery Seargent Hartmann look like a fluffy puppy. The training has been described as "schleifen", which, while translating as "drilling", really means the kind of personality-breaking, inhuman sort of drill that gave the Wehrmacht and the East German army a bad name. We don't like that over here, we prefer our soldiers to be well-rounded human beings, so called "citizens in uniform". We've seen enough soullless killing machines actually just doing whatever the fuck they are told, thank you very much.

To compound the problem, the draft has just been abolished. The last round of draftees have moved into the barracks in 2010, from this year on the Bundeswehr will have to rely on convincing qualified personell to join out of their own free will.
Used to be, we were all so very democratically proud of the draft. Because it made sure the army didn't become a state within a state, that enough of the people in uniform were actually right out of the civilian populace and could look forward to returning to it. A melting pot for all social strata that would make sure we wouldn't have a new terror machine instead of a defensive force.
With an unconstitutional and vastly unpopular (and quite un-defensive) clusterfuck in Afghanistan, they are in a bit of a situation with this.

[Sisyphus]

Thanks for that. I find it very interesting from the point of view of having been trained by a cadre of officers that sailed in square rig, one of whom sailed in the Denmark in the early 80's, another ship of state. He was a complete bastard and I hated him. Years later I served as one of his officers when he had his own ship and sailed as master. Years after that, when I was a captain, I found my own officers lacking for want of having been broken, as I had been, and built up again with training and discipline. It sounds crazy, I know. But the sad truth is that it works, even sadder is that it comes at a price, which I won't go into here.
This training style was something I was brought up with and I have to say it was effective but only in regards to dealing with the unpredictable environment of the sea. It's been jokingly referred to as the "School of Hateful Seamanship." It can and sometimes does crush the spirit of persons that wish to pursue a carreer at sea, but one thing it does do effectively is teach people to make difficult decisions, and have the discipline to do a job. At sea, the most mundane thing on land can seem, at times, an impossible task. Training at sea in one of these ships is very, very serious business. You either learn to fend for yourselves as a crew or you sail off over the horizon, never to be seen again.
All that aside, I find it quite interesting that these cadets, like most all cadets in ships of state, are officers themselves, or at least officer candidates. To turn on the master of the ship is a crime, and under admiralty law at least (don't know how it applies to the German Navy) you'd have a pretty hard time justifying your actions toward mutiny. I can only imagine the military would have much more stringent policies in regards to members of the ranks turning against a commanding officer.
Do you think this will be played out in the court of public opinion or will it follow the proper channels?

[DerGolgo]

They have a rear admiral running an official inquiry.
The defense minister (hugely popular guy) has to listen to some harsh words, as there was another incident recently where a soldier was killed in a weapon handling accident/murder by fellow soldier (still a bit unclear).
The court of public opinion is spinning wildly, of course.

Update:
Just read, the captain has been relieved of his command and the ship will return straight to Germany once the comission that will do the inquiry is on board, with one of them commanding on the return trip (the man being former 1st officer of the just relieved captain, apparently). The Gorch Fock is supposed to stay in her homeport until the matter has been cleared up completely.

[Rock]

“But men and officers must obey, no matter at what cost to their feelings, for obedience to orders, instant and unhesitating, is not only the life-blood of armies but the security of states; and the doctrine that under any conditions whatever deliberate disobedience can be justified is treason to the commonwealth.” – Henderson’s biography of Stonewall Jackson

Had to learn it while in school, most of the guys in my class thought it was a crock until the day you needed the most.

Midshipmen/cadet dying is a horrible thing, but the world doesn't stop. There is no time out or pause in life. And having a distraction while entering or leaving port is never a good thing.

[DerGolgo]

If anything, this affair shows that there are people in the Bundeswehr, even if mere officer-cadets at the beginning of their career, who think for themselves rather than showing the famous Kadavergehorsam (the obedience of corpses) that german soldiers used to be famous for.
Say what you will about their ability to defend the nation, that gives me great comfort when comparing them to their predecessors from the last century.

I guess the inquiry will tell wether or not their disobedience was justified or not. I would expect there to be a set of regulations in regards to safety and measures to take after an accident. Wether or not those were followed, that will probably be important as to wether they cadets are guilty of mutiny.
In any case, the fact that this escalated to mutiny shows, in my understanding, that the officers in charge are unable to lead their men (and women, as it is) and thus shouldn't be in charge of any.

[Rock]

even if mere officer-cadets at the beginning of their career, who think for themselves rather than showing the famous Kadavergehorsam (the obedience of corpses) that german soldiers used to be famous for

They are cadets, officer cadets. Their function is to become leaders. The only way to learn how to lead is to learn to take orders, to know what it is to be at the bottom of the food chain to work as a team. By learning this while on a training ship (or training environment) will prevent them from making decisions that will lead others to their deaths.

As cadets watching one of their own die in front of them is horrible, BUT deciding to rebel isn't the answer.

http://www.thelocal.de/national/20110125-32641.html
by this article were the officers harsh and out of line maybe but after teaching at teh US Naval Academy, I know how they (the instructors) feel....

[Sisyphus]

I don't think people really understand the level and degree of discipline required to operate one of these vessels. If the captain wants to wear bathing trunks, okay, a little strange perhaps and maybe for the Navy improper, but the proof is in the pudding, as they say. If he was capable of training and sailing the vessel, then fine. I guess the inquiry will solve that question.

This is really too bad. These ships are poorly understood in the first place. The public really has a poor concept of what mariners do in general, but when it comes to these things, it's really a matter of cluelessness. Reading some of the comments in the article Rock posted made me cringe.

[DerGolgo]

Update:

The comission of inquiry has found, in it's report, that the accusations against the captain are "largely unfounded", the flaws in his behaviour "are not as severe as had been described" and that the descriptions of his actions after the incident have been "distorted".

I use the quotation marks because the source is sorta vague all over.

[Rock]

The comission of inquiry has found, in it's report, that the accusations against the captain are "largely unfounded", the flaws in his behaviour "are not as severe as had been described" and that the descriptions of his actions after the incident have been "distorted".

Gee, I've never heard that before.....

[Sisyphus]

It's all about context. That the general public's opinion had little impact on the inquiry gives me hope.

[motorpsycho67]

Having spent 3 years in the military and gone through rigorous training, I can tell you it's quite common for a percentage of the group being trained to fail and be discharged from said training. The fact that the entire group of cadets mutinied implies (to me) that something more was at play here.

Hopefully the truth will surface

[Ames]

Am I the only one reading this and thinking about this:

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